Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Anienai]

Rule number 1. Tank you very much.
Rule number 2. Heal-u-all and be humble.
Rule number 3. Dam-I need to shut up and wait in Queue longer. { DPS }

I like you.

[Clicked]

Personally, if someone asks me to pull bigger i will do so.

However, if it goes wrong and we die as a result i will point fingers at the people who told me to pull bigger.

"I did as you asked, we died, it is your fault because it was your idea"

Making people feel bad is unnecessary. All you have to say is "I'll dial it back so we can stay alive".

"BAD TANK! WE WIPED BECAUSE OF YOU!" They shout.

I've tanked for a while now and I've died several times because of a large pull gone wrong. I've never had a group say anything like this to me. Maybe I'm lucky?

As for the subject at hand, it's very simple. If you want to tank to speed up, ask. If they don't, you sure can kick them, but you'll have to wait for someone else to replace them and there's no guarantee the new tank will be any better. So your call I guess.

Wall to wall pulls don't speed things up all THAT much because most jobs can't just AOE spam indefinitely without single target damage mixed in, the tanks and melee will be dancing around a lot more with more telegraphs to avoid, and healers give up more GCDs to keep up the tank so the DPS AOEs needs to make up for that.

[Mixt]

I've tanked for a while now and I've died several times because of a large pull gone wrong. I've never had a group say anything like this to me. Maybe I'm lucky?

The sad fact of the matter is that tanks are usually the designated scapegoat whenever egotistical jerkwads who can't handle the idea of being held responsible for their own failures bork something up.

Unless the tank is the egotistical bastard, then it's usually the healer who gets attacked.

This usually happens in a manner that eerily resembles the way politicians attempt to deflect attention away from themselves whenever the press comes sniffing for their dirty laundry.

So yes, consider yourself lucky.

[Wynn_Storm]

A tank should know their limit, so on certain leveling dungeons where i know things hit really hard, i don't pull as big.

Also a healer should know their limit as well.

Honestly if you are pulling small and a healer says to pull bigger, there is no harm in giving it a try.

If you die, just go back to your old pulls. At least that way you could say you gave it a shot and it didn't work out.

[Fland]

It's a rule because the tank has the fattest HP pool, defense, and tools necessary to mitigate damage. It's not convenient; it's common sense. Those who feel otherwise are ignoring that rule, and/or lack common sense. What is truly an unwritten rule, is that tanks MUST pull large, or pull according to the strength of the party. THIS is the true convenience, because it takes an experienced tank not only with tanking, but the instance itself to be able to gauge the strength of the group.

I also don't want to hear anything about healers having more responsibility. It takes a dungeon like The Burn to even put any kind of pressure on experienced healers because healing is broken as eff right now. They get to DPS 90% of the time while sitting on their ogcds and regens. They have the most downtime out of the three roles. All players have a responsibility of staying out of the bad as best they can, and those who are really good at this make life even easier for a healer.

There can be a lot of reasons why a tank won't pull large, and at the very bottom of that list is, "Ima tank and a selfish prick. What I say goes!" And yeah, you were in the right for kicking a tank who pulled too much twice in a row without even checking with the healer. That's a lot different than kicking a tank because he/she doesn't pull enough. The former is a true detriment to the group, and putting unnecessary pressure on everyone.

How is try to adjust the pull to the strength of the party lacks common sense?

Healers don't have more responsibilities because they mostly DPS?
Then how about the tank who spends 90% of their time sitting on their DPS stance?

[linay]

So long story short, why is it that a tank role itself seems to be granted a greater degree of entitlement over say three other people in the group. Should the three cater to the desires of the tank simply because they are the tank, or were people right in saying that the tank role itself sets the pace end of the story.

Ideally, it is a collaborative effort, and since this is a game with no real consequence, it doesn't hurt to try to do things outside of one's own comfort zone if asked by the party (assuming the party isn't being rude about it from the start).

That said, here are two reasons why tank may have more "privilege" than other roles:
1. Scarcity: There is simply less of them. Kick a tank and they can queue right back in while you possibly waste more time waiting for another tank, not so much the case with healer, and even less so with DPS.
2. Responsibility: Increasing the number of enemies to deal with at the same increases tank's responsibility more than the other roles. Tank has to manage enmity for every enemy while DPS switches to a simpler AOE rotation and healer still only has one tank to worry about unless DPS stands in AOE or tank fails to account for every enemy.

[HyoMinPark]

With regards to pacing, I don’t think it’s black-and-white in the sense that it’s always the tank who decides the pace (or always any other role that decides the pace). Any role in any dungeon run can decide what the pace of the dungeon is going to be based on several factors:

Tanks: gear, cooldown management, comfort levels
Healers: gear, healing/MP management, DPS capabilities, comfort levels
DPS: AOE management, gear (to a lesser extent than the first two, but it can still have a bit of an impact)


If a tank is poorly geared, they may not be able to do large pulls in some of the leveling dungeons, since those truck fairly hard. For the expert dungeons, it would depend on their gear and which dungeon—some pulls can be a bit dicey with poorly geared tanks, but generally, the expert dungeons don’t hit very hard. Also, if a tank seems to be allergic to cooldowns, that will also make large pulls more cumbersome because the healer has to babysit them as opposed to helping DPS the mobs down.

For healers, if they cannot manage their healing well enough to keep the tank (or sometimes themselves) alive, then that will slow things down as well. A healer with a poor weapon may also struggle, as their healing output will be significantly hampered by that. Healer DPS also goes a long with with large pulls to Zerg them down—WHMs are easily able to outdo a DPS with Holy spam, and AST can pull a significant amount of damage with Gravity spam as well. SCH has Miasma II.

For DPS, things are going to die really slow if they are those kinds of DPS that refuse to AOE because “it’s boring”. At that point, large pulls aren’t feasible due to their laziness—even if the tank and healer are well-geared/decent players. Eventually, the tank will run out of CDs and the healer will start to bottom out on MP. Gear on DPS can impact their damage, so that needs to be considered, too—but usually DPS hold back a run by refusing to hit their AOE buttons.


Ideally, I think for most dungeons, 2 sets of mobs (5~6 mobs generally) is the “standard”—the only exceptions here are the baby dungeons where there’s not a lot of AOE potential among the DPS. I’m more forgiving if the tank says they are new to tanking and may be nervous—though I do agree that level 70 tanks should at least try to pull more than just 3 mobs. Simply because the dungeons aren’t that threatening to them.

I don't care to do large pulls. I feel that it takes just as much time to kill several small packs as it does to kill one huge pack. Instead I opt to "chain pull" SO that when the first group or two I have pulled are down to 30% I'm already moving to the next pack. In this way I keep the pace quick and the packs small. Don't get me wrong I also will drag a pack of three to another pack of three.

Honestly, this is really bad to do. Not only is it annoying for melee DPS that now how to follow you to continue attacking/upkeep their rotation, you also run the risk of a healer getting aggro on the mobs you’re running to pull through any regen ticks they may have put on you while you’re still tanking the first pack. Casters will also be interrupted if you move out of their range/from them having to follow you. Just wait until the first pack dies if you don’t want to pull big instead of running off with them later.

Large packs should be dying quickly if your DPS are using their AOE rotation. If they are not, then that’s why things take so long to die. Caster LB is also good for really large pulls—already a gain using it against that instead of a boss at sub-2% HP.

[Gemina]

How is try to adjust the pull to the strength of the party lacks common sense?

Healers don't have more responsibilities because they mostly DPS?
Then how about the tank who spends 90% of their time sitting on their DPS stance?

I never said adjusting to the strength of the party lacks common sense. I said tanks are under no obligation to do so. This is a courtesy, not a rule. A good and experienced tank will be able to gauge what the party is capable of, and pull accordingly. What is common sense is that it is the tank that determines the size of the pull. A DPS or healer can know that they are capable of bringing down more than one pack of mobs, and request the tank pull more, but ultimately it is up to him or her to do so. If they go on ahead and pull more mobs into the fray, they are NOT being courteous to the tank, and also making him/her feel like schite in the process.

Healers who DPS 90% of the time isn't the same as a tank who spends 90% of the time in DPS stance. However, both understand that the bare minimum their role requires allows them to contribute a modest amount of DPS to the group's overall damage. I might catch some flack from other healer mains for saying they have a smaller amount of responsibility, but the truth often hurts. Fact of the matter is they have the largest amount of downtime out of the three roles. If they are not contributing to damage, they would literally be standing around doing nothing with the exception of tossing a regen and an ogcd heal here and there; 90% of the time.

Much like large pulls from the tank, healer DPS is a courtesy to the other members of the group. It's not required of them, and there is no rule that forces them to do it. Kicking a tank for not doing large pulls is akin to kicking a healer for not DPSing. Both are only doing the group a disservice because now not only do they have to wait for another tank/healer to enter the queue; they also have to wait for one who happens to have PiP checked off in their duty finder.

[Hash_Browns]

I never said adjusting to the strength of the party lacks common sense. I said tanks are under no obligation to do so. This is a courtesy, not a rule. A good and experienced tank will be able to gauge what the party is capable of, and pull accordingly. What is common sense is that it is the tank that determines the size of the pull. A DPS or healer can know that they are capable of bringing down more than one pack of mobs, and request the tank pull more, but ultimately it is up to him or her to do so. If they go on ahead and pull more mobs into the fray, they are NOT being courteous to the tank, and also making him/her feel like schite in the process.

Healers who DPS 90% of the time isn't the same as a tank who spends 90% of the time in DPS stance. However, both understand that the bare minimum their role requires allows them to contribute a modest amount of DPS to the group's overall damage. I might catch some flack from other healer mains for saying they have a smaller amount of responsibility, but the truth often hurts. Fact of the matter is they have the largest amount of downtime out of the three roles. If they are not contributing to damage, they would literally be standing around doing nothing with the exception of tossing a regen and an ogcd heal here and there; 90% of the time.

Much like large pulls from the tank, healer DPS is a courtesy to the other members of the group. It's not required of them, and there is no rule that forces them to do it. Kicking a tank for not doing large pulls is akin to kicking a healer for not DPSing. Both are only doing the group a disservice because now not only do they have to wait for another tank/healer to enter the queue; they also have to wait for one who happens to have PiP checked off in their duty finder.

If a healer chooses not to DPS, I would say it's more then fair to kick them if you questioned them, and they still refused.
I've had that problem before in the Party Finder while farming Sephirot EX. An AST *refused* to do any damage, and 100% focused on healing every fight.

Being able to play your class in this game doesn't mean you just need to do the bare minimum. People aren't going to, and shouldn't accept the bare minimum from others.

[Awha]

What strikes me as odd is a group that is so willing to support a tank through larger pulls, completely changes their tone when he/she chooses not to comply. Talk about a two-faced group. You guys are/were so steadfast, that you were actually willing to take a disservice by having to wait around for another tank than just deal with smaller pulls. If I was that tank, I definitely would have blisted every single one of you after being kicked.

The group isn't entitled to jack schite. If you want to set the pace for a dungeon, then queue as a tank. They have that privilege and entitlement because it is a role with a lot of responsibility. Why do you think it's the least played role of the three? And you have to understand that crap like this is a big reason why they are the least played role, and will continue to be. Don't ever gripe about long DPS queues. I will be quick to bring up your OP if you do.

Not a 100% certain why you have such a hostile tone, this is simply a discussion agree or disagree we have no reason to be combative with one another. That said I was not part of the group that initiated the kick, I was simply the tank that filled in when the asked within our discord. That said this conversation came about due to debate that came about within our discord group. I do get where you are coming from, but at the very least I do hope you can see where I come from even if you do not agree with it. While I cannot say for those that removed the tank, if I were in their position I probably would have done the same, though it is hard for me for to empathizes with the tank that got removed since I have only ever played tanks, and I tend to be extremely compliant with what the group wants even if it ends in failure, since that is how I learn best trial and error.

Though I will say the group is entitled to each player trying within the best to at least try to conform with the group. In my opinion no player has the right to hold any individual play style over the heads of the group, be it lack of AoE, ice mage, melee rdm, eos only healing sch etc . . . to me all of these are no different from a tank that simply refuses to at the very least "TRY" step outside their comfort zone. I personally would never kick or remove someone for trying and failing, nor would I expect a group to match my pace if the overall group does not want to. For me the group is king, since it is a collective effort. For me the most important part is that they try, I get how that could seem like a demand since yes I would be more inclined to remove a player for not being willing to try, though it is not I just think it is unfair to think that one person should dictate what the group does.

In the end if I created the hostile tone in my head, that is how I imagined your post sounding in my head I apologize if this is wrong.