Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Gemina]

It strikes me as odd since I know for a fact the same group of people that were upset about the removal of the tank refusing to try something new with larger pull despite the group in question telling them that they will be fine and they will support them through it.

What strikes me as odd is a group that is so willing to support a tank through larger pulls, completely changes their tone when he/she chooses not to comply. Talk about a two-faced group. You guys are/were so steadfast, that you were actually willing to take a disservice by having to wait around for another tank than just deal with smaller pulls. If I was that tank, I definitely would have blisted every single one of you after being kicked.

The group isn't entitled to jack schite. If you want to set the pace for a dungeon, then queue as a tank. They have that privilege and entitlement because it is a role with a lot of responsibility. Why do you think it's the least played role of the three? And you have to understand that crap like this is a big reason why they are the least played role, and will continue to be. Don't ever gripe about long DPS queues. I will be quick to bring up your OP if you do.

[Fyce]

The group isn't entitled to jack schite. If you want to set the pace for a dungeon, then queue as a tank. They have that privilege and entitlement because it is a role with a lot of responsibility.

Most people go with it simply because it's convenient to do so. Not because it's a written rule.
Being a tank doesn't give you the right to do whatever you want and ignore the 3 other players in your party. And the excuse of the "muh responsabilities" is ridiculous, as the healer has more responsabilities than the tank in dungeons.

Also, adapting the size of your pulls to your party is part of your duty as a tank. If you don't do it thinking that you get to decide everything, then you make a case about healers and DPS being authorized to do the same given the realm of their "responsabilities".

What if you healer can't heal big pulls? Are you still going to pull too much and wipe "because I have responsabilities and I get to decide!"? I had a tank like that a few days ago. They got kicked in the blink of an eye. And rightfully so.

Tl;dr: being a tank doesn't allow you to be a jerk and ignore the rest of your party.

Edit: just to be clear, I main Warrior. And I set the pace according to my party's capabilities. Not because I'm a self-proclaimed selfish god who has the "privilege and entitlement" to decide everything based on my personal preferences.
You want to know why? Because I understand that this is a team game, and doing things for the party instead of for myself is the best way to achieve our common goal. The party would be more comfortable with small pulls? So be it. The party would be more comfortable with big pulls? So be it.
If you only decide based on your own wishes, then you're not only a bad tank, you're a bad team player. (This is a general rule of thumb. Exceptions exist.)

[Gemina]

Most people go with it simply because it's convenient to do so. Not because it's a written rule.
Being a tank doesn't give you the right to do whatever you want and ignore the 3 other players in your party. And the excuse of the "muh responsabilities" is ridiculous, as the healer has more responsabilities than the tank in dungeons.

Also, adapting the size of your pulls to your party is part of your duty as a tank. If you don't do it thinking that you get to decide everything, then you make a case about healers and DPS being authorized to do the same given the realm of their "responsabilities".

What if you healer can't heal big pulls? Are you still going to pull too much and wipe "because I have responsabilities and I get to decide!"? I had a tank like that a few days ago. They got kicked in the blink of an eye. And rightfully so.

Tl;dr: being a tank doesn't allow you to be a jerk and ignore the rest of your party.

Edit: just to be clear, I main Warrior. And I set the pace according to my party's capabilities. Not because I'm a self-proclaimed selfish god who has the "privilege and entitlement" to decide everything based on my personal preferences.
You want to know why? Because I understand that this is a team game, and doing things for the party instead of for myself is the best way to achieve our common goal. The party would be more comfortable with small pulls? So be it. The party would be more comfortable with big pulls? So be it.
If you only decide based on your own wishes, then you're not only a bad tank, you're a bad team player. (This is a general rule of thumb. Exceptions exist.)

It's a rule because the tank has the fattest HP pool, defense, and tools necessary to mitigate damage. It's not convenient; it's common sense. Those who feel otherwise are ignoring that rule, and/or lack common sense. What is truly an unwritten rule, is that tanks MUST pull large, or pull according to the strength of the party. THIS is the true convenience, because it takes an experienced tank not only with tanking, but the instance itself to be able to gauge the strength of the group.

I also don't want to hear anything about healers having more responsibility. It takes a dungeon like The Burn to even put any kind of pressure on experienced healers because healing is broken as eff right now. They get to DPS 90% of the time while sitting on their ogcds and regens. They have the most downtime out of the three roles. All players have a responsibility of staying out of the bad as best they can, and those who are really good at this make life even easier for a healer.

There can be a lot of reasons why a tank won't pull large, and at the very bottom of that list is, "Ima tank and a selfish prick. What I say goes!" And yeah, you were in the right for kicking a tank who pulled too much twice in a row without even checking with the healer. That's a lot different than kicking a tank because he/she doesn't pull enough. The former is a true detriment to the group, and putting unnecessary pressure on everyone.

[Fland]

It's a rule because the tank has the fattest HP pool, defense, and tools necessary to mitigate damage. It's not convenient; it's common sense. Those who feel otherwise are ignoring that rule, and/or lack common sense. What is truly an unwritten rule, is that tanks MUST pull large, or pull according to the strength of the party. THIS is the true convenience, because it takes an experienced tank not only with tanking, but the instance itself to be able to gauge the strength of the group.

I also don't want to hear anything about healers having more responsibility. It takes a dungeon like The Burn to even put any kind of pressure on experienced healers because healing is broken as eff right now. They get to DPS 90% of the time while sitting on their ogcds and regens. They have the most downtime out of the three roles. All players have a responsibility of staying out of the bad as best they can, and those who are really good at this make life even easier for a healer.

There can be a lot of reasons why a tank won't pull large, and at the very bottom of that list is, "Ima tank and a selfish prick. What I say goes!" And yeah, you were in the right for kicking a tank who pulled too much twice in a row without even checking with the healer. That's a lot different than kicking a tank because he/she doesn't pull enough. The former is a true detriment to the group, and putting unnecessary pressure on everyone.

How is try to adjust the pull to the strength of the party lacks common sense?

Healers don't have more responsibilities because they mostly DPS?
Then how about the tank who spends 90% of their time sitting on their DPS stance?

[Gemina]

How is try to adjust the pull to the strength of the party lacks common sense?

Healers don't have more responsibilities because they mostly DPS?
Then how about the tank who spends 90% of their time sitting on their DPS stance?

I never said adjusting to the strength of the party lacks common sense. I said tanks are under no obligation to do so. This is a courtesy, not a rule. A good and experienced tank will be able to gauge what the party is capable of, and pull accordingly. What is common sense is that it is the tank that determines the size of the pull. A DPS or healer can know that they are capable of bringing down more than one pack of mobs, and request the tank pull more, but ultimately it is up to him or her to do so. If they go on ahead and pull more mobs into the fray, they are NOT being courteous to the tank, and also making him/her feel like schite in the process.

Healers who DPS 90% of the time isn't the same as a tank who spends 90% of the time in DPS stance. However, both understand that the bare minimum their role requires allows them to contribute a modest amount of DPS to the group's overall damage. I might catch some flack from other healer mains for saying they have a smaller amount of responsibility, but the truth often hurts. Fact of the matter is they have the largest amount of downtime out of the three roles. If they are not contributing to damage, they would literally be standing around doing nothing with the exception of tossing a regen and an ogcd heal here and there; 90% of the time.

Much like large pulls from the tank, healer DPS is a courtesy to the other members of the group. It's not required of them, and there is no rule that forces them to do it. Kicking a tank for not doing large pulls is akin to kicking a healer for not DPSing. Both are only doing the group a disservice because now not only do they have to wait for another tank/healer to enter the queue; they also have to wait for one who happens to have PiP checked off in their duty finder.

[Hash_Browns]

I never said adjusting to the strength of the party lacks common sense. I said tanks are under no obligation to do so. This is a courtesy, not a rule. A good and experienced tank will be able to gauge what the party is capable of, and pull accordingly. What is common sense is that it is the tank that determines the size of the pull. A DPS or healer can know that they are capable of bringing down more than one pack of mobs, and request the tank pull more, but ultimately it is up to him or her to do so. If they go on ahead and pull more mobs into the fray, they are NOT being courteous to the tank, and also making him/her feel like schite in the process.

Healers who DPS 90% of the time isn't the same as a tank who spends 90% of the time in DPS stance. However, both understand that the bare minimum their role requires allows them to contribute a modest amount of DPS to the group's overall damage. I might catch some flack from other healer mains for saying they have a smaller amount of responsibility, but the truth often hurts. Fact of the matter is they have the largest amount of downtime out of the three roles. If they are not contributing to damage, they would literally be standing around doing nothing with the exception of tossing a regen and an ogcd heal here and there; 90% of the time.

Much like large pulls from the tank, healer DPS is a courtesy to the other members of the group. It's not required of them, and there is no rule that forces them to do it. Kicking a tank for not doing large pulls is akin to kicking a healer for not DPSing. Both are only doing the group a disservice because now not only do they have to wait for another tank/healer to enter the queue; they also have to wait for one who happens to have PiP checked off in their duty finder.

If a healer chooses not to DPS, I would say it's more then fair to kick them if you questioned them, and they still refused.
I've had that problem before in the Party Finder while farming Sephirot EX. An AST *refused* to do any damage, and 100% focused on healing every fight.

Being able to play your class in this game doesn't mean you just need to do the bare minimum. People aren't going to, and shouldn't accept the bare minimum from others.

[Gemina]

If a healer chooses not to DPS, I would say it's more then fair to kick them if you questioned them, and they still refused.
I've had that problem before in the Party Finder while farming Sephirot EX. An AST *refused* to do any damage, and 100% focused on healing every fight.

Being able to play your class in this game doesn't mean you just need to do the bare minimum. People aren't going to, and shouldn't accept the bare minimum from others.

I'm not advocating the bare minimum by any means, especially in an EX encounter but we're talking dungeons here. I am merely stating the facts, and even in a dungeon if a healer outright refuses to DPS when asked, then kicking them is only going to be a disservice because now you really can't pull large at all, and may not even be able to clear a boss depending on the encounter. PF is available if you want to create a group that must meet specific standards such as large pulls or healer DPS. This isn't what roulette is for though. You choose to roll roulette, you choose to roll with the punches. Simple as that. And complaints we wish to express about such encounters has a 2000+ page thread that most people go to when they want to vent instead of creating their own thread.

[hydralus]

Fact of the matter is they have the largest amount of downtime out of the three roles. If they are not contributing to damage, they would literally be standing around doing nothing with the exception of tossing a regen and an ogcd heal here and there; 90% of the time.

You can totally do that as other roles too. You can do an overpower or just autoattack and AFK, it'll be fine if we're just talking dungeons. I've tested it out myself and there's been no issue. It just generally isn't done.

[Fland]

I never said adjusting to the strength of the party lacks common sense. I said tanks are under no obligation to do so. This is a courtesy, not a rule. A good and experienced tank will be able to gauge what the party is capable of, and pull accordingly. What is common sense is that it is the tank that determines the size of the pull. A DPS or healer can know that they are capable of bringing down more than one pack of mobs, and request the tank pull more, but ultimately it is up to him or her to do so. If they go on ahead and pull more mobs into the fray, they are NOT being courteous to the tank, and also making him/her feel like schite in the process.

Healers who DPS 90% of the time isn't the same as a tank who spends 90% of the time in DPS stance. However, both understand that the bare minimum their role requires allows them to contribute a modest amount of DPS to the group's overall damage. I might catch some flack from other healer mains for saying they have a smaller amount of responsibility, but the truth often hurts. Fact of the matter is they have the largest amount of downtime out of the three roles. If they are not contributing to damage, they would literally be standing around doing nothing with the exception of tossing a regen and an ogcd heal here and there; 90% of the time.

Much like large pulls from the tank, healer DPS is a courtesy to the other members of the group. It's not required of them, and there is no rule that forces them to do it. Kicking a tank for not doing large pulls is akin to kicking a healer for not DPSing. Both are only doing the group a disservice because now not only do they have to wait for another tank/healer to enter the queue; they also have to wait for one who happens to have PiP checked off in their duty finder.

But it still based on the party. The tank is not entitled to determine the pull based on themselves, otherwise you also imply tanks are entitled to do large pulls even with new, inexperienced, or undergeared healer/DPS because they themselves can and are equipped to do so.

Basically, adjusting pull to party works in every case, including the case where the party adjust to new, inexperienced, or undergeared tanks.
But adjusting pull solely on tanks only works in case where the tanks are new/undergeared, but not when other party members are.
So tanks sole entitlement is not common sense.

[Awha]

What strikes me as odd is a group that is so willing to support a tank through larger pulls, completely changes their tone when he/she chooses not to comply. Talk about a two-faced group. You guys are/were so steadfast, that you were actually willing to take a disservice by having to wait around for another tank than just deal with smaller pulls. If I was that tank, I definitely would have blisted every single one of you after being kicked.

The group isn't entitled to jack schite. If you want to set the pace for a dungeon, then queue as a tank. They have that privilege and entitlement because it is a role with a lot of responsibility. Why do you think it's the least played role of the three? And you have to understand that crap like this is a big reason why they are the least played role, and will continue to be. Don't ever gripe about long DPS queues. I will be quick to bring up your OP if you do.

Not a 100% certain why you have such a hostile tone, this is simply a discussion agree or disagree we have no reason to be combative with one another. That said I was not part of the group that initiated the kick, I was simply the tank that filled in when the asked within our discord. That said this conversation came about due to debate that came about within our discord group. I do get where you are coming from, but at the very least I do hope you can see where I come from even if you do not agree with it. While I cannot say for those that removed the tank, if I were in their position I probably would have done the same, though it is hard for me for to empathizes with the tank that got removed since I have only ever played tanks, and I tend to be extremely compliant with what the group wants even if it ends in failure, since that is how I learn best trial and error.

Though I will say the group is entitled to each player trying within the best to at least try to conform with the group. In my opinion no player has the right to hold any individual play style over the heads of the group, be it lack of AoE, ice mage, melee rdm, eos only healing sch etc . . . to me all of these are no different from a tank that simply refuses to at the very least "TRY" step outside their comfort zone. I personally would never kick or remove someone for trying and failing, nor would I expect a group to match my pace if the overall group does not want to. For me the group is king, since it is a collective effort. For me the most important part is that they try, I get how that could seem like a demand since yes I would be more inclined to remove a player for not being willing to try, though it is not I just think it is unfair to think that one person should dictate what the group does.

In the end if I created the hostile tone in my head, that is how I imagined your post sounding in my head I apologize if this is wrong.