Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Ilan]

Reason is not subjective.




Because they can be. Depends on the situation. And in general, mass pulling doesn't actually save that much time at all. It's like the people who speed 10 miles over the speed limit... when the reality is they are only getting to their destination 2 minutes earlier than the guy who went speed limit (yes, that is a proven fact).

To give you just a few examples of how single group pulling can be just as fast, with single group pulling, the healer can use more GCD's for DPS than they can during mass pulls. Furthermore, despite your false claim otherwise, positioning (due to hit boxes, size of pull, etc) can be a big issue that causes significant dps loss. Even party job make-up can be a big factor, as some jobs simply aren't good for AoE.

Fact of the matter is that mass group pulling is NOT objectively better/faster in every situation. It always depends, and in most cases the difference in clear time is insignificant (2-5 minutes at most).




But this has nothing to do with "not liking something". He was harassed because he was kicked for no valid reason. That, in and of itself, is harassment.

If you, as the tank, and the healer are not completly undergeared and know how to play your classes, the healer can dps all the time during big pulls. Also every job is capable of doing enough AOE dps to make it worth to pull big.

[cicatriz313]

It's really interesting to me how people seem to think the main issue of why people don't tank/heal is because of responsibility over just... like... people like doing damage. I enjoy maining dps because it's fun to see big numbers and kill things quickly and when I tank or heal, it annoys me how bad some dps players can be so I always go back. I've never worried about "responsibility" or any of that. Like tanks and healers aren't that hard to pick up in this game, and dungeons are for the most part, extremely linear lol.

[Rowde]

Wall to wall,
or not at all! (Vote Kick initiated!)


People making way to big a deal out of this nonsense. In like, 98% of the content in this game there is NO PENALTY for death. IMO, tanks should always be trying to big pull. If that leads to a wipe, then dial it back, no big deal.

[Lilseph]

And this is why I and many others don't tank.

On the opposite side of the arena, this IS why I tank: To take the lead and obliterate the dungeon.

[Fyce]

The group isn't entitled to jack schite. If you want to set the pace for a dungeon, then queue as a tank. They have that privilege and entitlement because it is a role with a lot of responsibility.

Most people go with it simply because it's convenient to do so. Not because it's a written rule.
Being a tank doesn't give you the right to do whatever you want and ignore the 3 other players in your party. And the excuse of the "muh responsabilities" is ridiculous, as the healer has more responsabilities than the tank in dungeons.

Also, adapting the size of your pulls to your party is part of your duty as a tank. If you don't do it thinking that you get to decide everything, then you make a case about healers and DPS being authorized to do the same given the realm of their "responsabilities".

What if you healer can't heal big pulls? Are you still going to pull too much and wipe "because I have responsabilities and I get to decide!"? I had a tank like that a few days ago. They got kicked in the blink of an eye. And rightfully so.

Tl;dr: being a tank doesn't allow you to be a jerk and ignore the rest of your party.

Edit: just to be clear, I main Warrior. And I set the pace according to my party's capabilities. Not because I'm a self-proclaimed selfish god who has the "privilege and entitlement" to decide everything based on my personal preferences.
You want to know why? Because I understand that this is a team game, and doing things for the party instead of for myself is the best way to achieve our common goal. The party would be more comfortable with small pulls? So be it. The party would be more comfortable with big pulls? So be it.
If you only decide based on your own wishes, then you're not only a bad tank, you're a bad team player. (This is a general rule of thumb. Exceptions exist.)

[Rilifane]

It's really interesting to me how people seem to think the main issue of why people don't tank/heal is because of responsibility over just... like... people like doing damage. I enjoy maining dps because it's fun to see big numbers and kill things quickly and when I tank or heal, it annoys me how bad some dps players can be so I always go back. I've never worried about "responsibility" or any of that. Like tanks and healers aren't that hard to pick up in this game, and dungeons are for the most part, extremely linear lol.

Echoing this.
I've mained tank for a long time in other MMOs and I never worried about the oh-so-high responsibility. I'm there to get my face munched off so others can keep theirs intact. I was expected to avoid unneccessary dmg, use my CDs accordingly, hold aggro, do pulls of the size according to what the party can handle and focus on dps of all the former was already taken care of. If I already knew everything about the dungeon, great. If not, I looked at the map to find my way and if there are surprise mob spawns, the worst thing that can happen is that you die because you didn't know them and the healer couldn't handle the additional dmg. So you respawn and learned something. Not the end of the world.

Same with healers. I make bars go up. I'm generally expected to heal through all dmg, including overpulls, surprise mob spawns and people eating stuff they could've avoided and not be a little princess because just it was avoidable/ unexpected. Dispell debuffs asap if they're actually detriminal and save the gcd for healing/ dmg if they're not that bad (like most poision debuffs). Do dps as much as possible and use my CDs/ oGCDs to maximise dps time. Adjust my position according to the others for grp heals/ heal range (and it's amazing how many people run around like headless chicken and stand at the other side of the room). If I failed at something, people tend to die. Lesson learned, doing better next time. Respawn, retry. Again, not the end of the world.

If people feel that this a huge thing to deal with, maybe it's just the wrong kind of responisibility for them. Or take a step back re-evalue your view on things, because I'm getting the feeling that a lot of this pressure is actually self-inflicted. No, a tank doesn't has to be the one person that perfectly knows the dungeon. If you don't, say so and someone will give you pointers. Easy as that.
No, you don't have to memorize every single damage pattern in dungeons as a healer in dungeon. Just stay alert and react if something happens or ask for advice.
Having memorized everything and being able to react in advance is a BONUS in dungeons not the main responsibility.
For difficult raids it's another thing, but I doubt that was the main topic. Of course you should come as prepared as possible, no matter the role.

[Astarotha]

i see it as a bit of a mix with considerations for the content and gear, there is literally no reason to large pull in satasha with a group that has one or no aoe, because it puts more onus on the healer to heal rather than allowing them to dps as well and kill things faster (problems arise when in copperbell the blam is insistent on pulling ahead of you and the healer refuses to heal you which keeps killing you on those large pulls and both of them are saying its your fault :tableflip: ), but if you have a well geared healer that knows their job (and isnt an afk fairy healer) generally you can get away with wall pulls

on the flip side of that, wall pulling in fucking bardams, av, and dd is stupid and everyone always wipes because theyre in a damn hurry >.<

[Gemina]

Most people go with it simply because it's convenient to do so. Not because it's a written rule.
Being a tank doesn't give you the right to do whatever you want and ignore the 3 other players in your party. And the excuse of the "muh responsabilities" is ridiculous, as the healer has more responsabilities than the tank in dungeons.

Also, adapting the size of your pulls to your party is part of your duty as a tank. If you don't do it thinking that you get to decide everything, then you make a case about healers and DPS being authorized to do the same given the realm of their "responsabilities".

What if you healer can't heal big pulls? Are you still going to pull too much and wipe "because I have responsabilities and I get to decide!"? I had a tank like that a few days ago. They got kicked in the blink of an eye. And rightfully so.

Tl;dr: being a tank doesn't allow you to be a jerk and ignore the rest of your party.

Edit: just to be clear, I main Warrior. And I set the pace according to my party's capabilities. Not because I'm a self-proclaimed selfish god who has the "privilege and entitlement" to decide everything based on my personal preferences.
You want to know why? Because I understand that this is a team game, and doing things for the party instead of for myself is the best way to achieve our common goal. The party would be more comfortable with small pulls? So be it. The party would be more comfortable with big pulls? So be it.
If you only decide based on your own wishes, then you're not only a bad tank, you're a bad team player. (This is a general rule of thumb. Exceptions exist.)

It's a rule because the tank has the fattest HP pool, defense, and tools necessary to mitigate damage. It's not convenient; it's common sense. Those who feel otherwise are ignoring that rule, and/or lack common sense. What is truly an unwritten rule, is that tanks MUST pull large, or pull according to the strength of the party. THIS is the true convenience, because it takes an experienced tank not only with tanking, but the instance itself to be able to gauge the strength of the group.

I also don't want to hear anything about healers having more responsibility. It takes a dungeon like The Burn to even put any kind of pressure on experienced healers because healing is broken as eff right now. They get to DPS 90% of the time while sitting on their ogcds and regens. They have the most downtime out of the three roles. All players have a responsibility of staying out of the bad as best they can, and those who are really good at this make life even easier for a healer.

There can be a lot of reasons why a tank won't pull large, and at the very bottom of that list is, "Ima tank and a selfish prick. What I say goes!" And yeah, you were in the right for kicking a tank who pulled too much twice in a row without even checking with the healer. That's a lot different than kicking a tank because he/she doesn't pull enough. The former is a true detriment to the group, and putting unnecessary pressure on everyone.

[Mixt]

Personally, if someone asks me to pull bigger i will do so.

However, if it goes wrong and we die as a result i will point fingers at the people who told me to pull bigger.

"I did as you asked, we died, it is your fault because it was your idea"


For an example, coming up on the last pull in Hell's Lid back when it was still new, i get told to Pull wall to wall, attempts to raise concerns about how that might not work out too well are ignored.
So i do as they want, rush in, pull everything, use cooldowns...promptly die because the incoming damage in that section is huge and the healer couldn't keep up, then everyone else gets murdered too.

"BAD TANK! WE WIPED BECAUSE OF YOU!" They shout.

Yeah, no, it's your fault for giving bad orders, don't go trying to offload the blame on me, you made the decision, so the consequences are on your head.

Complying with other peoples ideas does not make it my fault if things go south as a result, it means the idea was a bad one.

This does lead to the occasional rage fit from people who absolutely refuse too accept that they could possibly be in any way responsible for the fallout of their plans.

It even happens in raids, they demand we try some new and "Genius" strat they came up with, and then said strat kills everyone, and they start screaming about how the problem must be with everyone else because their ideas cannot possibly be wrong.

[Miles064]

So I'll put in my 2 gil.

I am a very defensive player. I have all dps at max and I am in the process of leveling the tanks. 90% of the time I single pull and try to have a cd up while in tank stance. Why? This game has way too many dps that don't aoe(or even use the lb). As tank I control the pace and based on what I see most of the time so far that pace is single pulls. Whats the point of power pulling like 7 mobs if the blm is just going to spam fire 3 and the sam is going to st the whole time?

On the flip side this is a team game. If I get asked to pull more I will do so. The people saying "they wouldn't be able to even do the dungeon without me" seem to forget that the tank needs the healer and dps as well. This is a group effort and if the group whats me to pull more I will try to do so(99.9% chance I'm staying in tank stance though). If we wipe? Try again or dial it back. We tried to handle it and couldn't cut it.