Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Kaedan]

You are inherently getting more damage from large pulls though. That's how aoe works. If you hit 3 monsters for 200 potency each in an aoe, if you add more monsters to that with a larger pull, even if it does the 50% 30% etc thing some aoe does now, it will still be more damage per gcd. This will be even more true if say the single pull is 3 mobs and some people are doing single target rotations because it's better for their job. This is more damage for tanks, healers (if they know how to use their ogcds), and dps.

IF the mobs are grouped up well
IF the dps are actually paying attention and hitting all the mobs
IF the dps you have in your group have good AoE
IF there aren't a lot of ground effects forcing a lot of movement and inefficient AoEs
IF the tank knows what they are doing and uses CDs and correct rotation
IF the healer can keep up with healing and still dps

That's a lot of "ifs". The fact of the matter is that single group pulls (not single target killing) can be just as fast as group pulls depending on the situation. If enough of the "ifs" aren't met in large group pulling, it can take quite a long time to down the mobs.

[Feidam]

You are inherently getting more damage from large pulls though. That's how aoe works. If you hit 3 monsters for 200 potency each in an aoe, if you add more monsters to that with a larger pull, even if it does the 50% 30% etc thing some aoe does now, it will still be more damage per gcd. This will be even more true if say the single pull is 3 mobs and some people are doing single target rotations because it's better for their job. This is more damage for tanks, healers (if they know how to use their ogcds), and dps.

It is. But when looking at time to kill if the time still takes longer than you could of killed 3 separate packs then it is a net loss in efficiency. It also assumes that the aoes are hitting all targets and we know that does not always happen. So again it is not a one size fits all scenario. I have no problem with large pulls or smalls. Making things go boom is what I do unless I am healing. We are talking about the aggressive behavior that comes from some players because optimal isn’t happening and treating people like robots. You can not ignore the human component. Even the best screw up.

[WaterShield]

Who said anything about single target And I also said necessarily not absolutely. As in there are times where they are a detriment. I’ve been groups where the pulls went flawlessly yay for us nice smooth run. I’ve been in groups where there they took longer to kill for whatever reason and small pulls should have been the way to go. So large pulls are not necessarily faster. Also you are not getting more damage from spells in large pulls. The potencies remain the same. What you are getting is the killing of more mobs in one go that could save a bit time as you are stopping less meaning being more efficient. Which in turn could lead to a faster run time assuming the kill rate is fast enough. Which usually happens with the level of gear we have the moment but doesn’t always. There are more variables to consider then large pulls only go!

Ok, so when I have an Aoe skill that doesn't have drop off on the damage...say scatter for instance. It does 100 damage to EVERYTHING it hits. So for every monster I hit with it I do an additional 100 potency of damage. Multiply this by the number of enemies the tank has on them and you arrive at the potency per cast I am now doing. Past 3 enemies I am doing more damage per cast than I can with ANY single target ability I have. So this very simply boils down to big number > small number.

Again who was saying to use single target abilities? Not I.

Edit: Post cap hit so responding here. I am clearly stating that larger pulls using aoe skills = larger damage... so I did not say to use single target abilities. I said to pull more so that your aoe does even more damage per cast.

Sorry if it did not come across as clearly as intended.

[Feidam]

Ok, so when I have an Aoe skill that doesn't have drop off on the damage...say scatter for instance. It does 100 damage to EVERYTHING it hits. So for every monster I hit with it I do an additional 100 potency of damage. Multiply this by the number of enemies the tank has on them and you arrive at the potency per cast I am now doing. Past 3 enemies I am doing more damage per cast than I can with ANY single target ability I have. So this very simply boils down to big number > small number.

Again who was saying to use single target abilities? Not I.

[Aurelius2625]

OP's group is kinda dicks, tbh. If a tank is NOT comfortable with doing something...then don't force them to? Jesus. If I queue in DUTY FINDER, I accept that it's going to be RANDOMS that I'm with, that will play DIFFERENTLY than I do. I'll probably bitch on discord, but that's about it. I'll stick it out because I can't EXPECT people to play the way that I WANT to.

Why don't you just find a tank friend, and make them do what you want? I mean... if you want someone to play how you want, shouldn't you make a party finder for it, or find people that play the way that you do? Instead of... I don't know, expecting RANDOM people to fit YOUR criteria?

That's as ridiculous as running savage in PARTY FINDER and expecting them to DO WHAT YOUR STATIC DOES. See how that's weird? Hopefully the tank got a much more understanding and better party than your friends' group. May they be blessed by slow tanks that don't pull much, to temper their impatience.

Hell, I'm a tank that pulls wall to wall, but if a healer tells me that they can't do it, I won't do it. I'll grumble a bit, but I'm not going to make them do something they do or aren't comfy doing. If I'm wanting to be speed racer, I'll grab my static to do it.

I think I finally understand why people kick people from PF that ask what the pug strat is, because they assume the person is going to be a raging wiener about "Uh, that's DUMB! Do it MY way!"

[van_arn]

OP's group is kinda dicks, tbh. If a tank is NOT comfortable with doing something...then don't force them to? Jesus. If I queue in DUTY FINDER, I accept that it's going to be RANDOMS that I'm with, that will play DIFFERENTLY than I do. I'll probably bitch on discord, but that's about it. I'll stick it out because I can't EXPECT people to play the way that I WANT to.

Why don't you just find a tank friend, and make them do what you want? I mean... if you want someone to play how you want, shouldn't you make a party finder for it, or find people that play the way that you do? Instead of... I don't know, expecting RANDOM people to fit YOUR criteria?

That's as ridiculous as running savage in PARTY FINDER and expecting them to DO WHAT YOUR STATIC DOES. See how that's weird? Hopefully the tank got a much more understanding and better party than your friends' group. May they be blessed by slow tanks that don't pull much, to temper their impatience.

Hell, I'm a tank that pulls wall to wall, but if a healer tells me that they can't do it, I won't do it. I'll grumble a bit, but I'm not going to make them do something they do or aren't comfy doing. If I'm wanting to be speed racer, I'll grab my static to do it.

I think I finally understand why people kick people from PF that ask what the pug strat is, because they assume the person is going to be a raging wiener about "Uh, that's DUMB! Do it MY way!"

*shrug* I don't deny kicking a tank that refuses to fast pull is, as you'd say, a "dick move" but I acknowledge it's the prerogative of the party to make that "dick move" or not.

The votes went through, so two people agreed the tank needed to go. So they went.

[Awha]

OP's group is kinda dicks, tbh. If a tank is NOT comfortable with doing something...then don't force them to? Jesus. If I queue in DUTY FINDER, I accept that it's going to be RANDOMS that I'm with, that will play DIFFERENTLY than I do. I'll probably bitch on discord, but that's about it. I'll stick it out because I can't EXPECT people to play the way that I WANT to.

Why don't you just find a tank friend, and make them do what you want? I mean... if you want someone to play how you want, shouldn't you make a party finder for it, or find people that play the way that you do? Instead of... I don't know, expecting RANDOM people to fit YOUR criteria?

That's as ridiculous as running savage in PARTY FINDER and expecting them to DO WHAT YOUR STATIC DOES. See how that's weird? Hopefully the tank got a much more understanding and better party than your friends' group. May they be blessed by slow tanks that don't pull much, to temper their impatience.

Hell, I'm a tank that pulls wall to wall, but if a healer tells me that they can't do it, I won't do it. I'll grumble a bit, but I'm not going to make them do something they do or aren't comfy doing. If I'm wanting to be speed racer, I'll grab my static to do it.

I think I finally understand why people kick people from PF that ask what the pug strat is, because they assume the person is going to be a raging wiener about "Uh, that's DUMB! Do it MY way!"

I mean they did me, as I said in the OP I was the replacement tank they picked up after asking in discord. Now the question if it was a dick move or not is not really a factor here since that is subjective. The reason behind the thread was simply because I got confused about the different levels of tolerance between roles some players in this game have. So I figured it would be an interesting point of discussion. It is interesting to see how vague rules or expectations regarding the DF can create vastly different expectations between the community, and the funny thing is either said can create an argument as to why their way should be valid, but this confusion is really only an issue because SE refuses to establish a clear expectation and use of the DF.

People say that DF is random and we should accept whatever random person we get unless they are rude (to a degree this is subjective and can vary from perspective) trolling (also subjective) or does something against the ToS that is a clear, but also has issues since are guidelines that are not enforced truly guidelines. This is where my confusions lays what makes your perceptive as to what is rude or trolling better then another? The only true objective tool we have to police is the vote kick feature, problem with the vote kick feature is the rules leave a lot up to interpretation.

[Alestrae]

I sit on both sides of the fence here. An anecdote from my WoW tanking experience: I tank really slow. Because I am comfortable that there is no risk with that pace. If someone says please pull faster, i will try. And oddly enough it was someone asking this that encouraged me to improve from stupidly slow to really slow. I also always check an increased pace is ok with the rest of the party.

Sorry, my point is, the tank sets the pace yes. But if the rest of the party feel a change of pace is needed, and explicitly says so, then the tank should at least try to adjust to that.

[Awha]

I sit on both sides of the fence here. An anecdote from my WoW tanking experience: I tank really slow. Because I am comfortable that there is no risk with that pace. If someone says please pull faster, i will try. And oddly enough it was someone asking this that encouraged me to improve from stupidly slow to really slow. I also always check an increased pace is ok with the rest of the party.

Sorry, my point is, the tank sets the pace yes. But if the rest of the party feel a change of pace is needed, and explicitly says so, then the tank should at least try to adjust to that.

I can relate to this, reason I got into raiding back in WoW was because someone called me out for my poor play on my shaman before removing me from the party, sure what they said was far from constructive, but it did get me to look up guides and practice proper rotations, stat break points etc . . . thing is I thought for the longest time I was doing fine but the reality was people just did not care enough to say anything and carried me through content. I get some feel they are being kind and respectful when they pull others across the finish line, but the reality is you are leaving them open to an even harsher fall when someone gets sick of pulling them.

[Granyala]

I sit on both sides of the fence here. An anecdote from my WoW tanking experience: I tank really slow. Because I am comfortable that there is no risk with that pace.

You can't compare WoWs dungeons of old to the faceroll we have in this game.
In the old dungeons you used crowd control, tank AoE was very limited and stuff like avengers shield (Paladin shield throw that hits 3 random mobs) was not usable in a CC scenario because it hit random mobs.
Also you had to wait for patrols because adding pats could very easily wipe the group.

Yeah in such a world a tank has to pull carefully and even *gasp* WAIT for patrols to pass/observe their routes. Man those were the days.

Nothing of that applies to FF-XIV though. The mobs in ex dungeons barely do any damage, they have no special abilities that require any form of control it is all just mindless "drag them onto a heap and AoE them down". I can understand people not having the patience to wait for single group 3 mobs at a time pulls in braindead content like that.

You can kick after 5 minutes have elapsed, and a DD replacement is usually a wait of a few seconds. Even if it takes longer, the ice mage wasn't contributing much damage compared to the AoE the other person could be putting out.

Is it really 5? I had the number 15 in my head. Probably from WoW.
Man, shows how rarely I kick people.