Why are standards seen as a crime in this game?

[DPZ2]

I've been saying for years that this community has a terrible problem with mollycoddling subpar players instead of just being real with them.
...
Don't be a dick with your delivery, but do be blunt. ...They can then shape up so the rest of the group can stop failing or barring that, if they catch an attitude you can also show them how easy it is to catch a free ride on the Requeue Train where they can wait for another group that might not care about success.

Define 'subpar players' in terms that don't involve a parser or references to main story content.

When a player gets frustrated and decides it's time to stop 'mollycoddling', "Don't be a dick with your delivery" gets thrown out the window of an airplane flying at 35,000 feet above a volcano.

If you're only complaining in reference to optional content -- well that's fine. It's optional.

And you should be sure to specify that's what you mean.

[Ilan]

Define 'subpar players' in terms that don't involve a parser or references to main story content.

When a player gets frustrated and decides it's time to stop 'mollycoddling', "Don't be a dick with your delivery" gets thrown out the window of an airplane flying at 35,000 feet above a volcano.

If you're only complaining in reference to optional content -- well that's fine. It's optional.

And you should be sure to specify that's what you mean.

Subpar players: Players that are not new anymore and don't know the basics of their job or can't do the easiest mechanics. You don't need to parse to see if someone has no clue what he/she is doing. Want an example? There you go: Two RDM in a dungeon, tank pulls normal and only one of them uses scatter. The one that doesn't use scatter is a subpar player because he/she doesn't know the basics of his/her class.

[DPZ2]

Subpar players: Players that are not new anymore and don't know the basics of their job or can't do the easiest mechanics. You don't need to parse to see if someone has no clue what he/she is doing. Want an example? There you go: Two RDM in a dungeon, tank pulls normal and only one of them uses scatter. The one that doesn't use scatter is a subpar player because he/she doesn't know the basics of his/her class.

Anecdotes gloss over so much.

Scatter has a potency of 100, so in normal pull with 3 mobs, that's 300 damage with a 2 second cast.

Jolt, with a 2 second cast, has a potency of 180 and can be immediately followed by one of two spells with a potency of 300. Total is 480 potency for what is essentially a single cast.

Over 6 seconds, I can use jolt/verthunder or jolt/veraero twice, for a potency of 960 against single targets, or I can cast scatter 2 times, for a potency of 600.

It isn't subpar play ... it's a choice of spells or style of play that you just don't happen to agree with.

[cicatriz313]

Anecdotes gloss over so much.

Scatter has a potency of 100, so in normal pull with 3 mobs, that's 300 damage with a 2 second cast.

Jolt, with a 2 second cast, has a potency of 180 and can be immediately followed by one of two spells with a potency of 300. Total is 480 potency for what is essentially a single cast.

Over 6 seconds, I can use jolt/verthunder or jolt/veraero twice, for a potency of 960 against single targets, or I can cast scatter 2 times, for a potency of 600.

It isn't subpar play ... it's a choice of spells or style of play that you just don't happen to agree with.

I enjoy how you specifically chose a "normal pull" to be single pulling vs the actual normal pull which would be pulling to the wall 2-3 groups. It's suboptimal play at that point hands down.

[Kalise]

Jolt, with a 2 second cast, has a potency of 180 and can be immediately followed by one of two spells with a potency of 300. Total is 480 potency for what is essentially a single cast.

That is incorrect.

Instant spells don't mean no GCD.

Jolt > Veraero still consumes 2 GCD's and thus is still 2 spells worth of actions.

Time spent actually hard-casting is only relevant if the cast time exceeds that of your GCD, which in most cases is never relevant because few jobs have anything with longer than a 2.5s base cast time (Really, it's only BLM that does)

Thus in 10 seconds, you can cast 4 spells (Assuming no SpS so 2.5s GCD)

Those 4 spells can be Scatter x4 for 300 potency each (If we assume 3x mobs) for a total of 1200 potency.

Or they can be Jolt > Veraero > Impact > Veraero which is 180 + 300 + 240 + 300 = 1020 potency.

Thus, overall, using AoE against 3 targets is beneficial here.

Though, I won't go into the more in depth analysis which would then factor in Mana generation which then contributes to Moulinet/Riposte usage and with Riposte Combo also leading into a Verflare/Verholy which complicates things somewhat (Just like the Upheaval vs Fell Cleave argument technically should also factor in FC's reduction in CD on Infuriate which increases overall BG generation)

[DPZ2]

That is incorrect.

Instant spells don't mean no GCD.

Which I forget when doing math and not actually playing through the skills.

Over 10 seconds, there will be a drop of 180 potency if you don't use the AoE. That may result in a drop in damage, or it may not, depending on gear level and weapon damage.

The term you are looking for in this case would be 'suboptimal', not 'subpar'. They don't mean the same thing. And it applies to the rotation, not the player.

[Ilan]

Anecdotes gloss over so much.

Scatter has a potency of 100, so in normal pull with 3 mobs, that's 300 damage with a 2 second cast.

Jolt, with a 2 second cast, has a potency of 180 and can be immediately followed by one of two spells with a potency of 300. Total is 480 potency for what is essentially a single cast.

Over 6 seconds, I can use jolt/verthunder or jolt/veraero twice, for a potency of 960 against single targets, or I can cast scatter 2 times, for a potency of 600.

It isn't subpar play ... it's a choice of spells or style of play that you just don't happen to agree with.

Thanks for trying to educate me but the point you are missing is that a normal pull is not one single mob, its several groups of mobs and if you don't use your AOE's in a situation like this you are a subpar player.

[DPZ2]

Thanks for trying to aducate me but the point you are missing is that a normal pull is not one single mob, its several groups of mobs and if you don't use your AOE's in a situation like this you are a subpar player.

A 'normal' pull is a group of 3 mobs. That's the context of the original discussion, and it was accepted by the poster.

Do not count on DPS to use their AoE effectively if the tank also don't take into account positioning, timing, and DPS job.

As a dragoon, when a tank pulls three packs of mobs who encircle the tank, and every one of those mobs has a circular AoE, using straight-line AoEs while dodging mob AoEs doesn't work well.

As a summoner, if Aetherflow is on cooldown neither Bane nor Painflare is available. Shadow Flare is probably on cooldown as well, that stupid 60s recast isn't meant for speed-running an instance. Can't speak to Akh Morn, since my summoner is only level 69, but I don't really see using that against mobs.

As a Bard, Quick Nock and Rain of Death work well against packs of mobs, but if you don't use Straight shot and [Venemous/Wind] bite first, your songs aren't going to be as effective, and you'll suffer a DPS loss because it's your Bite procs that enhance your crit chance.

Spamming AoEs without thought to the other parts of your rotation is also suboptimal.

[Ilan]

A 'normal' pull is a group of 3 mobs. That's the context of the original discussion, and it was accepted by the poster.

Do not count on DPS to use their AoE effectively if the tank also don't take into account positioning, timing, and DPS job.

As a dragoon, when a tank pulls three packs of mobs who encircle the tank, and every one of those mobs has a circular AoE, using straight-line AoEs while dodging mob AoEs doesn't work well.

As a summoner, if Aetherflow is on cooldown neither Bane nor Painflare is available. Shadow Flare is probably on cooldown as well, that stupid 60s recast isn't meant for speed-running an instance. Can't speak to Akh Morn, since my summoner is only level 69, but I don't really see using that against mobs.

As a Bard, Quick Nock and Rain of Death work well against packs of mobs, but if you don't use Straight shot and [Venemous/Wind] bite first, your songs aren't going to be as effective, and you'll suffer a DPS loss because it's your Bite procs that enhance your crit chance.

Spamming AoEs without thought to the other parts of your rotation is also suboptimal.

A "normal" pull is not 3 mobs. 3 Mobs is a small pull.

Really? You dot mobs first as a BRD? Again thanks for educating me but i know that too. The point is, and yes i WILL name the number of mobs extra for you now, if a tank pulls 6+ mobs, that are not impossible to hit properly with an AOE, and the dps still uses single target skills he/she is subpar.

[Feidam]

A "normal" pull is not 3 mobs. 3 Mobs is a small pull.

Really? You dot mobs first as a BRD? Again thanks for educating me but i know that too. The point is, and yes i WILL name the number of mobs extra for you now, if a tank pulls 6+ mobs, that are not impossible to hit properly with an AOE, and the dps still uses single target skills he/she is subpar.

A normal pull is the number of mobs that are clumped up(usually 3). Tanks running and grabbing multiple sets are large pulls which is the norm due to gear levels.

I do not think a certain level of expectation is bad honestly. What I think is bad is when people expect others to play perfectly all the time. No mistake always 100% optimized remember every aspect of every fight ever created. And yes those people exist and they tend to be loud with their displeasure imo. It’s not uncommon for hardcore players to expect that level of play from people who have no interest it. I’ve seen many players berated because of it. When while they were not optimal they actually capable of meeting the contents requirement. However, instead of 15 min run it took us 20 to 25 mins. Then they go off about learn your class, just quit the game etc. I can understand why some have become super defensive as this attitude is present in most games i’ve Played.

Players have to keep in mind too sometimes players are just toxic regardless of skill level. Just blacklist and move on.report if the toxicity warrants it. Sometimes players are just bad. They try but will always be on the bad side. It is what is.