Why are standards seen as a crime in this game?

[VirusOnline]

Actually, in Mists of Pandaria, WoW actually did lock the LFG tool behind completing Silver difficulty in a set of solo trials for each role you wished to use.

Where Bronze was so simple that it was basically checking that you had the game installed.

Silver was still pretty simple and was checking if you had an IQ with a positive integer.

While Gold was sort of challenging and required a little bit of thought (But was ultimately not necessary)

Though, this ended up being scrapped because it turned out that the majority of the playerbase was complete trash and found it too hard to beat Silver trials, because concepts like "Hit the bad guy" and "Don't stand in the fire" are too complex...

MoP ? Past WotLK WoW's system became disgustingly more and more broken. They attempted to implement challenges after the fact that they had dumbed down mechanics along with the fact that add-ons are rampant in WoW. They found that they had to dumb everything back down to the lowest performing player. WoW's downfall of player mechanics and performance is a result of such a system that allows players to be told what to do rather than thinking for themselves.

word count

Teaching players an intermediate level of play alludes to a level of the game's handholding rather than the player's self learning. Teaching basic levels of play is ok and that is what the healer/dps/tanks course (which also rewards gear) does. You learn much more when you actually understand why you are using the abilities you are using rather than a game telling you 'use this ability' now. This is what dungeons are for. Trials. HoH. PotD. Practice dummies. These 'playgrounds' exist for a person to test their abilities and receive feedback from the group they are with.

[Kalise]

MoP ? Past WotLK WoW's system became disgustingly more and more broken. They attempted to implement challenges after the fact that they had dumbed down mechanics along with the fact that add-ons are rampant in WoW. They found that they had to dumb everything back down to the lowest performing player. WoW's downfall of player mechanics and performance is a result of such a system that allows players to be told what to do rather than thinking for themselves.

But at least they attempted to "Teach" people, albeit in a flawed way, by having just the test at the end without any of the actual "Teaching"

With the failure to actually provide any teaching, they just continued down the path of idiot-proofing the game which happens when you leave players to have to research literally everything about the game and thus have to start balancing around people that have literally no clue.

Which is the way they seem to be going with XIV, never allowing a dungeon to be difficult in the slightest. Make everything about pulling wall to wall and rubbing your face across your keyboard for max DPS.

As far as addons go... Some of them they actually implemented into the core game, because it is stupid to rely on 3rd party programs for your game to be playable.

Teaching players an intermediate level of play alludes to a level of the game's handholding rather than the player's self learning. Teaching basic levels of play is ok and that is what the healer/dps/tanks course (which also rewards gear) does. You learn much more when you actually understand why you are using the abilities you are using rather than a game telling you 'use this ability' now. This is what dungeons are for. Trials. HoH. PotD. Practice dummies. These 'playgrounds' exist for a person to test their abilities and receive feedback from the group they are with.

Unless you actually TEACH and not just TELL.

Teaching is not just telling people things. If it were, we wouldn't have teachers in schools, we'd just get all students to watch a video telling them all the information they need.

Teaching is part telling and part getting people to understand by themselves.

So in this instance, you would tell people the basics - Stuff like "You can use WASD to move" and "You can use "Combo" skills in succession to deal more damage" and "Don't stand in the glowing orange areas or you take damage" as well as maybe a few more nuanced mechanics, like the different types of arrows mechanics use for Stacking/Spreading.

While for more advanced stuff, you'd try and get people to understand for themselves, telling them some information, but letting them experiment and experience it first hand.

So things like a BLM would be told about trying to use Fire IV during Astral Fire and then using Blizzard III to go into Umbral Ice before it times out and they lose Enochian. Where the player might do this and then think to use Fire I to extend Astral Fire's duration to push out another 3 Fire IV's - Thus now having being taught their standard rotation without being directly told it, at least not entirely.

Also "This is what dungeons are for. Trials. HoH. PotD. Practice dummies."

None of those actually give any relevant feedback on performance.

Dungeons are completable with just 2 roles being competent, as there are no enrage timers nor and in-game notification of your performance (Other than your party members telling you that you suck and/or kicking you)

Same for Trials, made even worse by the fact that there's an over abundance of players in the duty, because they're often balanced so that they can be completed by 1 tank, 1 healer and a few DPS rather than being tuned to need all 8 people to be competent.

Then the deep dungeons... Are also face-roll simple and don't demand anything from you. Outside of the higher levels that you need to specifically make a static to actually access.

None of these things, ask for competence, give any feedback on competence or even guide you towards competence.

People who will naturally want to improve can use them as places to practice, but they won't in of themselves actually help improve anyone.

[VirusOnline]

With the failure to actually provide any teaching, they just continued down the path of idiot-proofing the game which happens when you leave players to have to research literally everything about the game and thus have to start balancing around people that have literally no clue.

Correct, now you see what the thread and the meaning of standards is getting at. Because people believe they shouldn't have to the least bit of research outside of the game, don't read the tooltip, don't ask for help, (the list goes on) standards fall drastically and with it competence. And it's even more a shame that WoW raiders rely on a 3rd party program to tell them what to do every step of the way and if I remember the raiding scene everyone had that program.

When it comes to learning ...
Each classes' combo system' are written in the tooltips. Buttons that glow commonly signal a combo. The beginner courses teach you not to stand in the bad. Teaches you to protect the healer, and on. The game does provide these basic things. What you seem to suggest is a nuanced system that can pull everyone 'up to competent speed'. No single system can pull everyone up to intermediate level because people learn differently and at different rates. This is where the utilization of resources in and/or outside of the game come in (tooltips, guides, videos, discords, community). Again, this is simply the reality.

Also "This is what dungeons are for. Trials. HoH. PotD. Practice dummies."
None of those actually give any relevant feedback on performance.

Stone, Sky, Sea and the likes indeed give feedback on performance. It tells you whether you have the performance to defeat a boss.

Practice dummies allow you to practice a rotation, the feedback being that you can take your time to practice over and over again until it sticks.

HoH and PotD allow you to 'level' and experiment with those new abilities/incorporate. Or simply allow a player to become comfortable with a class in a low pressure environment.

Trials and dungeons allow you to go in, play with the community (which can give feedback), and exist to help you practice in a live environment your abilities.

There is feedback, its just different types of feedback.

None of these things, ask for competence, give any feedback on competence or even guide you towards competence.

This is subjective to the player and their reasons for being there.

People who will naturally want to improve can use them as places to practice, but they won't in of themselves actually help improve anyone.

Again, this is subjective to the player and their reason for being there.

On this note we'll have to agree to disagree on whether a player shouldn't/should have to research to better themselves.

[Cheremia]

If you get so easily upset on how other players conduct their roles is it enjoyable for you the game?

Is it ok to live that level of exaggerated concern on how other players decide to play their character roles/jobs?

And as a Bard will always aoe big pulls so not sure where this even come from.

I had bards that told me they don't aoe because their aoe is worse than SMNs, i had Mnks not aoe for big bulls, i had a lot of things, even if i asked if they could aoe, they don't. It's not the worst thing but why do you not if there's 10 mobs on screen? There's enough people not aoeing. You may aoe, i may aoe, i get more commends on brd than any other class for some reason. You must be really lucky to not ever encounter those 1o1 classes that do not find their aoe buttons, but it's a thing?

Also, are you telling me it is okay for a MCH to do less damage than both of the healers(the tank was even worse) in orbonne since they were busy jumping aorund and looking at other stuff? While the other 3 of our dps all did 3k+ more damage than him? Happened today even! A few hours ago! He died often because he was busy jumping into an aoe, so me, the whm said "less jumpy, more attacky" where did that go? In him dying again and again.

I literally said what i do not expect from people. The only thing i want from them is TO PLAY THE GAME? Why would you argue with me if that's the only thing i expect from ANYBODY?
Play the game and pay a little attention? What monster must I be to expect that.

Do you think it's fun to carry people that REFUSE to learn after 4+ wipes that they JUST have to pay a LITTLE attention to mechanics? Even if you call the mechanics out? Even if people mark themself to lead them?
I am the last person that leaves, i'll try my best to help but what do you think will happen if all that turns into "omg you're all such toxic raiders" while these toxic raiders helped with all mechanics, died the least(only to enrages), healed everybody, broke their backs trying to keep other alliances alive.
I only do extremes in PF and 24mans, what? The only thing i do is pay attention and trying my best not to die on everything.
I had one really frustrating Midgardsomr run where 2!!!!!!!! healer lb3 were used and at the end, still everybody but me(tank) friend (tank) and a healer (sch) was alive and the SCH WENT through AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALL the mechanics first and went really in depth with them and only 2ish people were new to it.

Don't understand what that has to do with "oh you can't critic how somebody plays their class!!!!!!!!!!!" while every class can aoe and every class can... not die? Is paying attention to the game you chose to play such a crime that you're trying to talk down to me while i say "i don't care how well you do if you're trying".

YOu don't even KNOW how proud i am when i try to help newish and really nervous whms what they can do, how they can do it and that they can chill a little and they actually take it to heart, use that 1 holy i told them they CAN do since it helps THEM a lot and then you notice that they notice it's a good thing and use it more and more and get way more comfortable over the dungeon? Or Teaching newer bards things? I see them try and i'm the proudest mom of ALL TIME.


Don't talk down to me when i have little standard.