Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Fyce]

Overall this is mindset that the group was within their right to remove the tank, and they just asked the discord group for a tank to fill in, the wait was not that long for them since I filled in, it just got heated in the discord because when someone asked why the tank was removed they gave the reason. Calling them selfish and entitled etc . . . which got me thinking since I do not understand why people have this view.

Yes, they were in their rights to remove the tank. And people were also right to call them selfish and entitled. One might also argue that the tank was selfish and entitled too.

Again, it's just a case of irreconcilable gameplay, and the minority get kicked. There is no clear rule about this, simply because it's a case by case basis.
The only "rule" that exists is: when gameplay differences are the issue, the majority wins. And that's it.

[Awha]

Yes, they were in their rights to remove the tank. And people were also right to call them selfish and entitled. The two are not incompatible.

Oh I get they were within their right, sorry if maybe I did not explain myself my confusion did not lay between if they had the right to remove the tank or if people had the right to complain. My confusion came from why do people seem to think thanks inherently are entitled to more leeway in terms of style of play over other roles. As I said when I asked within the discord they mentioned context matters, but I do not see the difference in context. If everything in the group is based around the collective effort then why for some reason do people feel tanks get a slide due to scarcity or anxiety. Overall this stems from the mindset that I have seen throughout my time playing this game, tank sets the pace no matter what.

[Fyce]

Oh I get they were within their right, sorry if maybe I did not explain myself my confusion did not lay between if they had the right to remove the tank or if people had the right to complain. My confusion came from why do people seem to think thanks inherently are entitled to more leeway in terms of style of play over other roles. As I said when I asked within the discord they mentioned context matters, but I do not see the difference in context. If everything in the group is based around the collective effort then why for some reason do people feel tanks get a slide due to scarcity or anxiety. Overall this stems from the mindset that I have seen throughout my time playing this game, tank sets the pace no matter what.

I edited my previous post as it didn't convey what I meant correctly.

As far as "tank set the pace", this is only relevant because of the game's mechanics. If you disregard the mechanics, then it comes back to the majority deciding what to do, regardless of who plays what job.
The tacit rule of the tank being the one who set the pace is definitly not engraved in stone. Most people go with it simply because it's a pain to speak up and fight others about what to do... So almost everyone just silently do whatever the tank wants to do. But sometimes, people do speak up, which is what happened in your situation, and therefore the majority won, as it should.

[Nyxn607]

I would say I am an average to below average tank as I hate their play style in this game. When I do play a tank in a roulette at a higher level, I pull 2-3 groups of trash at a time and still manage to do alright. I probably take more damage than I should, but oh well.

I find it hard to believe a tank can't do large pulls, unless as others have mentioned that they are a brand new tank, or if they are under geared for the content. Outside of those two reasons, a tank should at the very least attempt to do large pulls if they are asked to do so by the party.

[Physic]

I edited my previous post as it didn't convey what I meant correctly.

As far as "tank set the pace", this is only relevant because of the game's mechanics. If you disregard the mechanics, then it comes back to the majority deciding what to do, regardless of who plays what job.
The tacit rule of the tank being the one who set the pace is definitly not engraved in stone. Most people go with it simply because it's a pain to speak up and fight others about what to do... So almost everyone just silently do whatever the tank wants to do. But sometimes, people do speak up, which is what happened in your situation, and therefore the majority won, as it should.

just because majority has the power to do something doesnt mean they were right to do so.

[Fyce]

just because majority has the power to do something doesnt mean they were right to do so.

Maybe, but in this case they had the rights to do so.

[Makeda]

Despite tanking being the easiest role to do in MMOs, they are still pretty uncommon... and that is almost always due to threads like this one.

Nothing sucks the joy out of a task more than having a back-seat driver tell you how to do your own task...

Pretty much everytime I try to convince someone to try tanking or to 'try it again' they come back with "I just don't like the pressure" - and by that, they almost always have a story of being told how to do their own task when trying to tank, or seeing it happen to some other tank and deciding they don't want any part of that...

I pretty much ignore people who tell me what I should be doing when I didn't ask for help... That's not just true when tanking. You wanna play my role, queue as it. You wanna play my actual toon for me - queue with your squadron.

If I mess up my rotation and you know why - that's still annoying to be called on when I also probably know why... but even that is not as bad as you giving me a line-by-line set of commands over what keybind to hit next...

If I'm pulling to fast for my healer to keep up... that's something I need to learn how to spot on my own. And generally I can. If I'm pulling slower than you can handle - maybe I have my reason. Unless I start telling which heal to cast, or which fireball to cast, maybe you should bug off my back.

Of course I get it when I'm on something like my Au'Ra that is a healer / caster and she's on RDM, and... like last night, the healer asks me to cast the mana regen thing on her. Because she didn't try to dictate my entire rotation at me... she just asked for help.

And pacing... well that pretty much is the tank's "rotation." And the reasons it might be different than you expect go beyond just what your own MP or TP bar says.

Nothing worse than a back seat driver...

And if you don't think the tank is the driver fine - go pull that pull over there and see how long your toon stays alive. If you can do it... then fine. Kinda why I stopped making this rant back when I was playing WoW outside of 'Mythic+absurd' - because DPS there can generally survive anything 2-weeks after it comes out. So I let them tank it, and they do, and it's all good... But if they start spamming the WoW version of this "go go go", I go... back to the queue... without needing a votekick. Because I don't care if they pull if they handle it, but I don't settle for a back seat driver.

[van_arn]

And if you don't think the tank is the driver fine - go pull that pull over there and see how long your toon stays alive. If you can do it... then fine. Kinda why I stopped making this rant back when I was playing WoW outside of 'Mythic+absurd' - because DPS there can generally survive anything 2-weeks after it comes out. So I let them tank it, and they do, and it's all good... But if they start spamming the WoW version of this "go go go", I go... back to the queue... without needing a votekick. Because I don't care if they pull if they handle it, but I don't settle for a back seat driver.

That's why I ended up healtanking the last two packs before the last boss of Saint Mocianne's Arboretum (Hard), and why the party decided to kick the tank that wouldn't pick up adds.

Ultimately it's the party's decision.

I will say though, at least as a scholar-- nothing gets me going quite like healtanking. That fairy and those shields can work miracles!

[Damien2213]

I've always felt big pulls were fine the higher level dungeon you were in, but when these Tanks try to pull like that in the early dungeons it usually causes more confusion than helps anything. The first story dungeon is a great example. The area where a bunch of enemies are on a deck type area, I see tanks kill most party members at this one particular spot by trying to pull more than the party can handle. These dungeons will always contain a mix of new and experienced players, and I think players need to understand that new players should play at the speed they are comfortable at. Once you get to higher level dungeons this argument really won't matter because people fly through those dungeons and they aren't going to debate with you about the speed, they are just going to go. Just my two cents...

[Hash_Browns]

I've always felt big pulls were fine the higher level dungeon you were in, but when these Tanks try to pull like that in the early dungeons it usually causes more confusion than helps anything. The first story dungeon is a great example. The area where a bunch of enemies are on a deck type area, I see tanks kill most party members at this one particular spot by trying to pull more than the party can handle. These dungeons will always contain a mix of new and experienced players, and I think players need to understand that new players should play at the speed they are comfortable at. Once you get to higher level dungeons this argument really won't matter because people fly through those dungeons and they aren't going to debate with you about the speed, they are just going to go. Just my two cents...

While I can't argue for everyone who is in favor of big pulls in this thread, I personally have said multiple times that small pulls are fine in under level 50 dungeons, and doing dungeons for the first time. I don't think many people here are expecting wall-to-wall pulls in new content, or content where everyone lacks good AOE control.

That being said, most people in this thread are talking about the OPs case, which was a level 70 post-stormblood dungeon that has a iLvl requirement of 340.

By the same logic, DPS aren't needed in dungeons either. After all, tanks and healers can get by just fine without.

Correct. That's why the meta for Rath EX is 3 tanks, 1 SCH