Since Lore Suddenly Matters

[Iscah]

The weird thing is, having the "more bestial race" itself seems more lore-jarring to me than hypothetically introducing the previously-hidden male gender for the Viera (who aren't technically the same race at all, just an identical alternate-universe counterpart). It wouldn't even need to break the existing lore, just say that times are changing and the old rules and gender-roles aren't so strictly followed any more.

Up until the actual reveal of Hrothgar, I've been arguing that we couldn't possibly get an actually beastlike playable race, because it would go against this game's established lore in ARR of the conflict between men and beastmen.

That distinction has been increasingly blurred as the game has gone on and we've expanded into new areas, but at least that's been limited to non-playable characters who won't be seen until later in the game, and especially won't be treated as "just another adventurer". Male Au Ra seemed as far as they could possibly go - beastlike features but still a distinctly human face.

If they want to stay true to their own lore, it seems really strange to me that they'd choose to develop this beastlike race at all. Even if people have been asking for it, I've been saying all along that it's because they don't realise the distinction and how strange it would be in ARR, and that's why the creators have been sticking to only human-like playable characters.

But now they've gone against that expectation, and I don't know what to think of it.

[Vanitas]

Good to see that tue general discussion salt spreaded to the lore section for a bit

[Jyera]

The weird thing is, having the "more bestial race" itself seems more lore-jarring to me than hypothetically introducing the previously-hidden male gender for the Viera (who aren't technically the same race at all, just an identical alternate-universe counterpart). It wouldn't even need to break the existing lore, just say that times are changing and the old rules and gender-roles aren't so strictly followed any more.

Up until the actual reveal of Hrothgar, I've been arguing that we couldn't possibly get an actually beastlike playable race, because it would go against this game's established lore in ARR of the conflict between men and beastmen.

That distinction has been increasingly blurred as the game has gone on and we've expanded into new areas, but at least that's been limited to non-playable characters who won't be seen until later in the game, and especially won't be treated as "just another adventurer". Male Au Ra seemed as far as they could possibly go - beastlike features but still a distinctly human face.

If they want to stay true to their own lore, it seems really strange to me that they'd choose to develop this beastlike race at all. Even if people have been asking for it, I've been saying all along that it's because they don't realise the distinction and how strange it would be in ARR, and that's why the creators have been sticking to only human-like playable characters.

But now they've gone against that expectation, and I don't know what to think of it.

They did more or less confirm in the lore panel at JP Fanfest though that the typology of 'beastman' is completely constructed, so I dunno that it fazes the lore much. I'd like to learn what the story on Hrothgar is, since the feeling I get is they might mainly just be very elusive; starting as one in ARR would be really interesting to try to roleplay out, imo. A Hrothgar WoL really might have a lot to disentangle about the Spoken/'beastman' distinction.

[LineageRazor]

If they introduced male Hrothgar and female Viera now and then in 6.0 added in female Hrothgar and male Viera it would require the same amount of work as adding in Hrothgar male + female now and Viera male and female in 6.0.

It is for precisely this reason that I think folks who are holding out hope for the other genders to be added later are dreaming. M!Hrothgar and F!Viera ARE the final race that will ever be added, because adding future races (including F!Hrothgar and M!Viera) will be too resource-intense. In fact, the fact that we'd be adding "leftovers" is another strike against the possibility of it ever happening - adding a new race is an amazing source of hype for an expansion. Expanding an existing race tends to evoke more of a, "Well, it's about time." kind of reaction, rather than froth-mouthed enthusiasm.

If the devs change their mind and decide to add a new race in the future, I doubt it'll be the leftovers from these races. They would add a new race, instead. Or maybe two, once again genderlocked, because hey, the precedent has been established!

They did more or less confirm in the lore panel at JP Fanfest though that the typology of 'beastman' is completely constructed, so I dunno that it fazes the lore much. I'd like to learn what the story on Hrothgar is, since the feeling I get is they might mainly just be very elusive; starting as one in ARR would be really interesting to try to roleplay out, imo. A Hrothgar WoL really might have a lot to disentangle about the Spoken/'beastman' distinction.

In discussions about adding "bestial" races, I'd occasionally point out the Amal'ja, who are basically humans with black fur and panther heads. What makes them Beastmen, then, and not humans? Arbitrary designation? That would be the implication by that Fanfest quote - but I think there's more to it than that...

Basically, the player races are essentially different "breeds" of the SAME RACE. Society may frown on it, and actual successful births may be rare, but the player races CAN interbreed. An Elvaan or a Lalafell are not going to successfully produce offspring with a Sahagin or Sylph, no matter how they try, but an Elvaan WITH a Lalafell is not out of the question. That's really all that's needed to differentiate Hrothgar from the Beastmen; they may have unusual faces, but they're still humans; still the same race as Garleans, Au Ra, Hyur, and so on - just a different breed.

[Kalise]

It is for precisely this reason that I think folks who are holding out hope for the other genders to be added later are dreaming. M!Hrothgar and F!Viera ARE the final race that will ever be added, because adding future races (including F!Hrothgar and M!Viera) will be too resource-intense. In fact, the fact that we'd be adding "leftovers" is another strike against the possibility of it ever happening - adding a new race is an amazing source of hype for an expansion. Expanding an existing race tends to evoke more of a, "Well, it's about time." kind of reaction, rather than froth-mouthed enthusiasm.

If the devs change their mind and decide to add a new race in the future, I doubt it'll be the leftovers from these races. They would add a new race, instead. Or maybe two, once again genderlocked, because hey, the precedent has been established!

Well, they said that they wouldn't be adding any more races to the game, due to the amount of work they require. (But then again, they also said they wouldn't do genderlock again )

However, they DID say that there was a possibility that if they had the resources that they might include the other genders of these two races.

As far as the hype goes... Unveiling the canon appearance for Male Viera would cause an Calamity level surge of hype.

If judging by the reaction that NOT doing so seems to have caused.

Up until the actual reveal of Hrothgar, I've been arguing that we couldn't possibly get an actually beastlike playable race, because it would go against this game's established lore in ARR of the conflict between men and beastmen.

Well, it's possible that "Beastmen" notion pertains more to do with how a particular society lives more so than its appearance. Much in the same way that Imperials consider all other societies as "Savages" despite many of them being literally the same races and potentially even have originated from some of the regions they refer to as Savages (Such as parents being conscripted from there or some such)

As such, it may be that Hrothgar, despite beastly in appearance, follow a similar societal construct as the likes of Hyur, Roe, Elezen, Miqo'te and Lalafell. Wherein they seek to speak to new races they encounter and set up trade routes and cohabitate within cities, as opposed to "Beastmen" whom are typically territorial and will attack other species on sight (Outside of course the Beast Tribes we help whom are more concerned with survival and well... Not summoning Primals all the damn time)

This could also be reflected in their architecture too, building cities out of stone (Or other convenient materials) as opposed to using natural caves, makeshift huts or uhh... *Looks at the Gnath*... Yeah... (Though, not necessarily defined by their architecture, Xaela are an example of a more primitive standard of living in a species that isn't considered "Beastmen")

Since honestly, I think there might be a bit more to the whole "Beastmen" war than just "They look fugly, lets kill them!". Especially since, well, we literally do make contact with Beast Tribes and become allies (Though it kind of sucks that this never actually gets expanded on outside a single quest per expac to get the "Allied" status with all 3 tribes per expac)

[Cilia]

Exactly what qualifies a race as "beastman" isn't clear, but it is mostly just a social construct used by Eorzeans to refer to peoples who worship what they seem to consider pagan gods - and most of what they consider pagan gods are mostly limited to the primals summoned in Eorzea. Notably the term isn't used in the Far East, so there's no clear divide between what qualifies a race as "beastman" vs. man. Maybe it's just used to denote those who have given up the hunter / gatherer lifestyle in favor of building up a civilization (in which case even the Xaela, who have different traditions between tribes but do have a unifying culture, qualify). Dunno.

... what I do know is that the term is unlikely to have anything to do with genetic compatibility, since the Lalafell of the First Shard (Dwarves) are considered beastmen despite having no known physiological differences.

Where do the Hrothgar sit in all this? Dunno, cuz we still don't know anything about them other than the fact they exist.

[Cybylt]

To my understanding, before garlemald came along and issued their ultimatum to kick out beastmen and those with the echo things were generally on better terms between the races of eorzea outside of the ixal's logging and the sahagin and pirates fighting each other on the seas.

But even then, the only peoples kicked out and brought to conflict were those races that had summoned primals over the course of 1.0. Qiqirn, Mamool Ja, and Lupin have not and are treated like anyone else.

[LineageRazor]

... what I do know is that the term is unlikely to have anything to do with genetic compatibility, since the Lalafell of the First Shard (Dwarves) are considered beastmen despite having no known physiological differences.

Ah, but Dwarves are on the FIRST, not the Source. Whatever sociological divide that occurred in the Source's past to divide the world's sapients into Beastmen and non-Beastmen may not have happened on the First, or may have happened but in a completely different manner.

My claim was that "Beastmen vs non-Beastmen" seems to be drawn along the lines of reproductive compatibility on the Source. On the Shards? Who knows? But they've been isolated from the Source long enough that it seems odd to assume that they'd have the same standards when it comes to deciding who the privileged races are.

[Cybylt]

I think "beastmen" in regards to dwarves is more a presentation shorthand for factional groups than any in-world reasoning. Same reason stuff that isn't primals gets called primals, because it's a content type.

[QT_Melon]

That's really old concept art for a form of Viera that never came to be. It's not from the same development cycle, and likely didn't even factor into this version of viera

Given that the city, Crystarium was based off a Tech Demo, don't discount "old" as not factoring in for concept artwork. Also it seems don't understand what "concept art" is on both sides of the argument.

This is more polished and shown off stuff in the guise of "concept art" A majority of concepts never see the light of day due to NDA,MNDA and possible copyright issues among various other things.