What is a "bad player" to you?

[Keizerwilson]

You also realize that I'm talking about times where if you pulled that many trash then the healer wouldn't have time to be DPSing?

Or do all healers pump out massive HPS 100% of the time so get to freely DPS?

I'm not against healers DPSing. I think it's fine.

It's just that, a lot of healers (Mostly Savage Raid geared ones ) make runs last way longer by trying to push their DPS on trash instead of actually facilitating the Tank to pull more trash packs and at worse, cause wipes because they were too busy being in the middle of a Holy cast to actually save the Tank.

If you're doing content where the Tank can pull wall to wall while the Healer is spamming out DPS heavily, sure, go ahead and do it. But it's not all content that allows that and when it is, it's often content that hard blocks actual mass pulling with roadblocks so you're only got like 1-2 packs you can get... With Tanks only having 1 CD that can let them ignore damage for a period of time and heck, Hallowed Ground ideally will only be able to be used ONCE in an entire dungeon, since it shouldn't last much more than its 7 minute CD.

But often, it's not the case. In my experience anyway. The healer won't let mass pulls happen. They instead want to just push out ST nukes on single packs and even then it can be dicey for the Tank always questioning "Will I actually get healed? Or am I gonna need to use Clemency/Inner Beast spam?" this is where the "Pathetic" healer damage comes from. By the fact that they just want to ST nuke (To say nothing of the fact that this also happens in Roulettes that use content below the level that healers get AoE's) instead of thinking "Maybe if I made the tank feel like he can actually take more packs, he'll do so and then the DPS will melt everything down"

Healer ST spam will not ever make a dent compared to DPS vs mass packs but many healers think otherwise.

I ran Ghimlyt earlier with three randoms and we had about 13000k group DPS. This group also took 25 mins to clear the dungeon.

I then ran Ghimlyt with two other members from my static (including a savage geared BiS healer) we had 21000k group DPS. This group cleared the dungeon in 13 minutes.

The random tank was also doing large pulls. You can do both. I'm not sure why you insist on this dichotomy of it being one or the other.

[Kalise]

I ran Ghimlyt earlier with three randoms and we had about 13000k group DPS.

I then ran Ghimlyt with two other members from my static (including a savage geared BiS healer) we had 21000k group DPS.

The random tank was also doing large pulls. You can do both. I'm not sure why you insist on this dichotomy of it being one or the other.

Because that's what I experience.

Some pulls I see healers having to use oGCD's and every available GCD on heals. It's kind of hard for them to be doing DPS and healing at the same time when they haven't got any spare GCD's to spend on their damage skills.

Sure, there are some dungeons that are easier than others where you can slack on healing. But it's not all of them. In my experience at least.

So I don't judge people who do focus on healing. Especially since often, those are my faster runs because more mass pulls than otherwise.

I think it's a toxic attitude to be expecting literally every healer to be a savage geared BiS healer terms of capability and gear level.

Same for expecting every tank to be able to live through everything and let the healer go ham while still mass pulling.

Yes, ideally, Healers should try and push out damage. But not every group is the same. Some take more damage, some make mistakes and get hit by things (Especially mDPS like to stand in all the yellow areas when mass pulling >.>). While some feature literally BiS geared players that make runs much easier and give much more lenience for pushing out DPS.

[cicatriz313]

It's funny how people who are defending healing only healers are making it out to be so black and white. Obviously if you're under geared it's not like people expect you to throw out tons of dps. The problem is anyone can throw out some dps period. Like some dps even helps with healing Aka Swiftcasting holy or throwing out shadowflare. You're meant to do both, that was the entire reason for them having damage scale off of kind and taking off cleric stance. The fact that people are still arguing this point is crazy to me.

[Misutoraru]

Real raiders can read a combat situation very well, and they will adapt to what they're presented with. They'll go ham on dps if it's safe to. The ones who cause deaths or wipes are unable to judge the situation properly. Or they don't even think to. Or in some cases they think it's beneath them to play in any other manner...which is just sad.

Unfortunately this kind of mind set have been spread so badly even newbies are following, they think they must dps at all contents
I have been dying a few time because the healer (with sprout icon) think they must dps. To a point I was kill by some low level content like Ravana

[Keizerwilson]

Unfortunately this kind of mind set have been spread so badly even newbies are following, they think they must dps at all contents
I have been dying a few time because the healer (with sprout icon) think they must dps. To a point I was kill by some low level content like Ravana

Or you could try using cooldowns? Also, every tank has an invuln skill at 50.

[Zeonx]

No such thing as a bad player, people learn to get better just like people learn how to ride a bike.

I mean you wouldn't call someone who messes up riding a bike a bad bike rider eventually they will learn how to ride it then pop wheelies and jump mounds.

[SannaR]

No such thing as a bad player, people learn to get better just like people learn how to ride a bike.

I mean you wouldn't call someone who messes up riding a bike a bad bike rider eventually they will learn how to ride it then pop wheelies and jump mounds.

What if you never learned to ride a bike? I had a bad teacher that one time seriously aimed me at a big swing set's pole. Also I've learned that my body doesn't like the actual feeling of going fast to the point panic starts and my stomach gets queasy.

[Zeonx]

What if you never learned to ride a bike? I had a bad teacher that one time seriously aimed me at a big swing set's pole. Also I've learned that my body doesn't like the actual feeling of going fast to the point panic starts and my stomach gets queasy.

That still doesn't mean you are bad at it, its just not your cup of tea.

You would have to learn how to ride it first but then you already learned that so even if someone wrecked a few times doesn't mean they are bad it only teaches them not to wreck again.

[SannaR]

That still doesn't mean you are bad at it, its just not your cup of tea.

You would have to learn how to ride it first but then you already learned that so even if someone wrecked a few times doesn't mean they are bad it only teaches them not to wreck again.

How does that mean I'm not bad at it if we're still talking about bike riding if one never learned to ride one? It would have been better if you used how to drive a car/truck/tractor as someone probably has learned even at a young age how to drive one of those.

[Mixt]

I would like to point out that no amount of cooldowns will save if you receive no heals.

I should know, i can sit in tank stance, use Rampart, Sentinel, Hallowed Ground, Sheltron, Bulwark, and still end up dead on a mass pull or boss because of a lack of healing, heck, it's happened multiple times.

Examples include: Ravana Hard mode, get sliced to pieces due to being ignored by the healer, turns out cooldowns don't stop all damage (Except for Hallowed Ground, which only lasts 10 seconds and has a 7 minute cooldown, which doesn't help when the healers have decided that you don't need heals)

Titan Hard mode: Yeah sure buddy, don't heal the tank after Mountain Buster, i'm sure that can't possibly go wrong...wait, i ran out of HP, bugger.

The last trash pull in The Burn: damned bugs and worms end up eating my face straight trough tank stance and every CD in my arsenal whenever the healer decides to go "Nope, no heals, deeps only!" The only way to live long enough for the DPS to kill the things is to spam Clemency on myself instead of attacking, thereby removing tank DPS from the equation instead.

And plenty of other such incidents where no amount of correct cooldown management will save you from eventually running out of HP.

"Tank don't need healing, they are supposed to be invincible! Imma go ham on deeps instead! ...Tank why you die? U suck! Only bad tanks die!"

Seriously Healer? Seriously?

Acting as if infinite Hallowed Ground is a thing, my god.

And then there's the DPS and the healers themselves dropping to unavoidable raid wipe AOE's in boss fights...

What were these healers thinking anyway?

There are a lot of healers who can't handle both attacking and healing at the same time, but try it anyways because the meta says so, and in so doing get everybody killed, then start yelling at the tank for not being completely invulnerable.

But then, anecdotes count for nothing.

Maybe i just have a lot of bad luck in roulettes?