Il Mheg 1/2 of two mirrored zones?

[fay2]

In other words, it wasn't time travel but long distance teleportation, despite the use of time in the incantation. As long as both circle remain intact, it's posible to go back and forth between the two places,

So it creates a gateway folding space between to points, but not points in time.

the words used in the calling a time travel hint

-The Scions that have been called their souls have traveled and vanished but their souls have not returned to the live stream.

That adds to and expands that point however, the scions souls traveled Krile was able to track them moving then vanished and if she would think to go to the location they traveled to they are likely to find a gateway circle to ?somewhere?.

So again
the Scions are not dead. Their souls have not returned to the live stream
Their souls are not in their body's
Their souls are not on the source.
based on the spell used to do this their souls have through a gateway.

That gateways other side isn't on the source as their souls aren't on the source that leaves the most likely option another shard still.

So how could a the gateway circles connect the source and a shard? that ones a easy answer the Warriors of darkness made them one here while they where here on the source, and the gates other sides there on the 1st before they left the 1st shard. They may have planned to use it to return to the 1st, however they got a better option in "Midealyn".

Actually it's a "fact" that the entire story is stuck in a time bubble and "no time" has passed since the beginning of the game. It's still only five years since the Calamity, no matter how much time logically should have passed.

Yes everyone starts their story and its turning 5 years after the 7th calamity with them playing time passes for their character

That said, there still seems to be time "between" events - it just somehow doesn't count for anything.

It's best not to think to hard about it.

No lets just think about that a little, because what I was pointing out is that I hope your not widening the goal posts for "time travel" to time passed in a normal manor in one direction = time travel

Time has passed in game while follow the MSQ.

so while we are on that.

it seems unlikely he would be involved in this story again without time travel being a factor, as it's implied he won't leave the tower for a long time yet.

Implied by G'raha Tia maybe, however Biggs and Wedge had other ideas {to save 1000words an image}



So if this leak is true about crystal tower.
biggs and wedges prognostication will hold true.

I really hope we get Biggs bellowing wake up princess at G'raha tia waking him up, and his 1st waking image as he opens his eyes Biggs and wedge doing a pucker up emot at him lol


crystal tower side note that also brings Noah back to mind and also makes geomancers the likely healer for the expansion. Well if it comes with the return of stone skin sure I fine with that,
and im left waiting for the next expansion for dancer

Edit your post to get around the 3000 character limit. Cut the entire text, just type "editing..." or something similar (requires 10 characters of text) and post that, then immediately edit and paste your actual post back in.

thanks useful to know ------------{editing}

Conversely, ask how they're handling Unukalhai lately - or rather, how they're not. A native of the Thirteenth shard, blessed with the Echo or something like it, official member of the Scions as of patch 3.5? He should be pretty relevant around about now... but he's in an optional questline and so instead he's still alone in the back room of the Rising Stones (and possibly, time-wise, still in 3.5), completely unconcerned or unaware that most of his new friends have fallen into inexplicable comas.

Then again, those new friends seem to have forgotten he exists.

Yup, he's been left out of the picture either forgotten or intended for us to forget about,
He would make for a big spoiler if the dev.s intent is to blind side most people of shard travel.

Again It would just be another MSQ locking side quest like the 1st 3 hard mode primals back in ARR where made a clear condition to continue MSQ later on.
If you get to the keeper of the lake now you have to have them done now to progress.

"Poorly" is subjective. Yes, there are paradoxes - things that shouldn't have happened at all without time travel being involved - but for lack of a better word, they're neat paradoxes. A self-sustaining, stable time loop that doesn't break anything. It just happens. No single piece of it is left actively going around the loop repeatedly, everyone and everything has an entrance and exit from the story. (Except possibly the cat, but that seems to be a special exception. I need to map that out.)?

I'll stick with Matoya's view of it all the same {this calls for an image}

I much prefer this kind of time-travel story to one where events can be altered. That is how we get 'messy' paradoxes - change the past, prevent the bad thing from happening... but now how do you know about the thing you needed to prevent?

repeating history / perceived repeating history
prognostication of events
fortune telling

all come to mind

[ObsidianFire]

That adds to and expands that point however, the scions souls traveled Krile was able to track them moving then vanished and if she would think to go to the location they traveled to they are likely to find a gateway circle to ?somewhere?.

So again
the Scions are not dead. Their souls have not returned to the live stream
Their souls are not in their body's
Their souls are not on the source.
based on the spell used to do this their souls have through a gateway.

That gateways other side isn't on the source as their souls aren't on the source that leaves the most likely option another shard still.

There is one... being, for lack of a better term, that is not dead, and is not in the Aetherial Sea and is still in the Source. And that is Zodiark. He's in the moon and was forcibly separated from the rest of the Source's Aether while still being in the Source himself. You could say that that while his Aether isn't in the Aetherial Sea, his body is still in the Source and must be linked to his aether somehow seeing as Zodiark is not dead, merely imprisoned.

What happened with the Scion's souls matches what happened to Zodiark very well. Wonder if they ended up in similar places...

[Iscah]

I should preface this by mentioning that I am not unshakeably tied to the idea of this being a time travel plot and not dimensional travel, but I simply don't see any overwhelming evidence in favour of one and against the other. There is an argument for both at this point.

That adds to and expands that point however, the scions souls traveled Krile was able to track them moving then vanished and if she would think to go to the location they traveled to they are likely to find a gateway circle to ?somewhere?.

So again
the Scions are not dead. Their souls have not returned to the live stream
Their souls are not in their body's
Their souls are not on the source.
based on the spell used to do this their souls have through a gateway.

That gateways other side isn't on the source as their souls aren't on the source that leaves the most likely option another shard still.

Just based on that information, both time travel and 'space travel' are still viable - either way it is disrupting the natural progression of being able to follow someone's trail through normal space at a normal progression of time.

Think of it as if we were following a physical trail of footprints. If that person got pulled across space, they would no longer be in that location and the trail would come to a sudden end.

If they got pulled across time, they are no longer in that location at that time and the trail comes to an equally sudden end.

We can't tell which event happened just by observing the trail of footprints - which is basically where we are at this point.


I'm also not sure (but would have to check the cutscene) that we know they are not on the Source - simply that the aetherial trail has gone cold, and that may mean we have no chance of finding them even if they were still here.

But if they aren't here, then being elsewhere in time may be every bit as untraceable as being elsewhere in physical space.

Yes everyone starts their story and its turning 5 years after the 7th calamity with them playing time passes for their character

[...] I hope your not widening the goal posts for "time travel" to time passed in a normal manor in one direction = time travel

Time has passed in game while follow the MSQ.

I'm not trying to "widen the goalposts", I was just pointing out the very odd goalposts as officially stated by the lore writers. Time in this game is a wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey bubble where events happen, and you can even maybe trace how long those events took, but - at least for the sake of game-storytelling and keeping everyone on the same page - time itself is not "counted".

It's correct that we started our story five years after the Calamity.

The ending of the Dragonsong War was also five years after the Calamity.

So was the liberation of Ala Mhigo.

And when we, say, finally visit Meracydia in 8.0? That will be happening five years after the Calamity.



All that said, for the sake of real storytelling then yes, time has passed.

Just don't try to pin down how much time because the official answer is "none at all".

As I said, don't try to think too hard about that, just go with it.

Implied by G'raha Tia maybe, however Biggs and Wedge had other ideas [...]

I really hope we get Biggs bellowing wake up princess at G'raha tia waking him up, and his 1st waking image as he opens his eyes Biggs and wedge doing a pucker up emot at him lol

I would be entirely fine with that.

crystal tower side note that also brings Noah back to mind and also makes geomancers the likely healer for the expansion. Well if it comes with the return of stone skin sure I fine with that,
and im left waiting for the next expansion for dancer

Geomancers are already in the game if you did the Lv60-70 AST quests, but it just seems to be a Far Eastern branch of conjury-cross-astromancy.

[fay2]

Seems I didn't submit my last edit in the post I did >_< so an abridged version of what never made it

If we can go by the New Year's poem, "fate" and "history" seem to be used as opposite concepts here. Fate (or destiny) cannot be changed, but history can be guided by our actions. This seems to tie into Urianger's line in the 5.0 trailer - essentially their fate cannot be denied, but they can decide what to do about it.

Yet the warriors of darkness are of a different mind about fate

And when we, say, finally visit Meracydia in 8.0?.

It maybe a lot sooner than that, if

very unlikely tho

Geomancers are already in the game if you did the Lv60-70 AST quests, but it just seems to be a Far Eastern branch of conjury-cross-astromancy.

Yes Geomancers were finally named in StB even a few unique casting assets that Kyokuho casts during the relaying of the wards in one of the AST StB quests, but we have had one under our noses since ARR

Rammbroes here has been sporting that Geomancers wand/bell since ARR. I can say that because few people in the fc I'm in liked the look of it back then and we went through every duty trying to find it as a drop whether it was WHM or BLM . It's been a thorn in my side ever since we sent a huge amount of time running all available duties in the hope of it being a drop came up with nothing at the time, we were left speculating that it may have been a left over from when arcanist didn't use books.
The moment I saw Kyokuho's weapon , I had a "THAT WAND! no not all this time" moment.

[Cybylt]

Rammbroes has it because it's what they toss on any caster who doesn't fit into existing classes. If I remember correctly, it was wielded by someone who identified as a scholar in 1.x which didn't have Arcanist, Scholar, or Summoner. Might have even been Rammbroes.

When/if GEO becomes playable, I anticipate them getting something else seeing as the animation set on that weapon is Conjurer.

edit: A bit more on that came to mind later Laveva and Rammbroes are both from Sharlayan, Laveva repeatedly and likely ignorantly refers to Geomancy as a foreign and derivative style of Astromancy implying a lack of its study in Sharlayan.

[fay2]

I'm fine with "the echo" as our time travel device as it stands now. The time travel that is unable to change histories events.
It even feels under utilized to be honest and as i stated before it could be used to go to shards long rejoined to see their history to understand each calamity better that rejoined them.

I should preface this by mentioning that I am not unshakeably tied to the idea of this being a time travel plot and not dimensional travel, but I simply don't see any overwhelming evidence in favour of one and against the other. There is an argument for both at this point.

The main issue with proper controlled time travel being throwen into the game at this point is it's a slippery slope to where

Out Comes and Concequences become irrelivent

Without those whats left of the heros story?
What is there to invest in story wise? why bother with the MSQ they we'll just go undo it all anyway? why bother at all really?

It's the raise issue with npcs death in MSQ, while a caster with access to raise or have a phonex down couldnt we just save then? but for any aspect people don't like in the story.
1st stop we going back to save little Noraxia so there are no dead sylphs

However even with time travel added to MSQ in a controlled manor were we on MSQ rails and to our character time seem not to change out comes for us as we live it in our perseved time line because a 3rd party has come back in time to alter events, it still means the time line has changed from the time line they are from that future they came from.

Controled time travel now excists in the realm. You know who stands to benifit the most from time travel? Ascians they would be fawning all over itlike a flock of seaguils over a fryed chip

If they didnt have it, it would be long before they did they seem to have a greater understanding and control over the echo than we do.
Now that we have unmade 2 Ascian overlords and maybe a 3rd in their eyes they are sure to be having lower ascians watching our and our allies every move.

Thats why i said fine if this it's been tied to the 13th calamity and its tempral one fine, I'm sure it could be a great story to end MSQ , however we are only at the 8 and 9th if it is twin calamitys still 3 more before we get to the 13th.

I'm in no rush to see the end of FFxiv and the MSQ. There way to much other stuff to flesh out before they go ending it. The dimensional side for one the hole rest of the world for another.

However one thing the dimensional side has is a fresh slate it gives the creators more creative freedom something that isn't tied down to the original repair job of ffxiv.

Another thing they can do with dimensional travel is
Burn Rak'Tika Greatwood to a crisp in one dimensional maybe giving us the box art?
Personally I think that might be the Ad Mheg
and still have a forested Rak'Tika Greatwood all wooded and green on the source.

One more thing dimensional travel has going for it. Is the story writers can continue to do what they seem to love to do and have no one know of the warrior of light.
More fetch quest here we come >_<; .

There is one... being, for lack of a better term, that is not dead, and is not in the Aetherial Sea and is still in the Source. And that is Zodiark. He's in the moon and was forcibly separated from the rest of the Source's Aether while still being in the Source himself. You could say that that while his Aether isn't in the Aetherial Sea, his body is still in the Source and must be linked to his aether somehow seeing as Zodiark is not dead, merely imprisoned.

What happened with the Scion's souls matches what happened to Zodiark very well. Wonder if they ended up in similar places...

Not sure you can say its Quite the same, my take on Zodiark is it is not "hole" the sundering caused that and creating the shards in ten and three.

Also "Rebirth" of Zodiark has been the main aim of the Ascians to date, so their view is that Zodiarks status is dead. pesky dead statues need to shake that off

I figure each calling the scions ended up in different places on the same shard.
An interesting quest is why the calling has effected the scions it has ?

If I remember correctly, it was wielded by someone who identified as a scholar in 1.x which didn't have Arcanist

Arcanist was there in 1.x the same way we still have musketeer now (the double barreled pistols merlwyb uses)

Not playable and npc's only.

implying a lack of its study in Sharlayan.

"implying" but do you really see Sharlayan not having a study on a magic art ?

[Cybylt]

Fair, but why would a student of Sharlayan be so aggressively ignorant of an art she professes to be so similar to her own if it is a subject of study in the homeland? Why would it not be studied as being within the same family of magics?

She says her grandfather has made passing mention of Geomancy in the past as a foreign magic as well and he's a master of Astromancy, an aged scholar of the nation. Again suggesting no proper study of it within Sharlayan itself.

[Iscah]

The main issue with proper controlled time travel being throwen into the game at this point is it's a slippery slope to where

Out Comes and Concequences become irrelivent

Without those whats left of the heros story?
What is there to invest in story wise? why bother with the MSQ they we'll just go undo it all anyway? why bother at all really?

It's the raise issue with npcs death in MSQ, while a caster with access to raise or have a phonex down couldnt we just save then? but for any aspect people don't like in the story.
1st stop we going back to save little Noraxia so there are no dead sylphs

However even with time travel added to MSQ in a controlled manor were we on MSQ rails and to our character time seem not to change out comes for us as we live it in our perseved time line because a 3rd party has come back in time to alter events, it still means the time line has changed from the time line they are from that future they came from.

This is very dependent on how you approach the logic of time travel - and again, why I'll point to the Alexander story (and similarly designed "stable time loops") as an example of how it can be handled without bringing up issues of "what if we went back to change X?" because the gate to that slippery slope is firmly closed.

Rule #1: If you know it happened, it cannot be changed.

Rule #2: If you don't know exactly what happened, time travelers (including future-you) may have been involved in the details.

Any "changes" we might attempt to make to past events aren't changes at all - they become part of the single flow of time that is the way it always happened.

We saw Noraxia die. We saw her body and carried her home to the Twelveswood. Nobody can swoop in and save her, because they didn't.

But... let's go with an actual conceivable example in the game... how did Gaius safely escape the burning castrum? How did anyone know to come and look for him there? Suppose a time-traveler dropped into the right place at the right time to save him...?

In that case, we could be that person. We would be going into the past, rescuing him (even as our past-self is rescuing Thancred), and returning to "our time". That doesn't mean there was ever a version of the past where we didn't rescue him - it just happened. It always happened.


My best example of a stable time loop playing out "differently" according to characters' perception is the climax of Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. At its simplest explanation: having warped back in time to just a few hours earlier, the characters think they're interfering with the events that happened "the first time around", but actually are an integral part of causing those events to happen in the first place.

Another thing they can do with dimensional travel is
Burn Rak'Tika Greatwood to a crisp in one dimensional maybe giving us the box art?

I don't see a burned forest in that image at all. It's a smudgy nondescript background to a black-and-white drawing. It could be anywhere, though I'm inclined to think of Odin in the (unburned) Twelveswood.

Rammbroes has it because it's what they toss on any caster who doesn't fit into existing classes. If I remember correctly, it was wielded by someone who identified as a scholar in 1.x which didn't have Arcanist, Scholar, or Summoner. Might have even been Rammbroes.

I think Rammbroes still is a "scholar" in the broad sense of a "studier", not the gameplay-class which is specifically a Nymian battle-scholar.

It maybe a lot sooner than that, if

very unlikely tho

You know what I mean, though? I just pulled out a random location name that we might go to sometime in the future but probably not for a while yet. Whatever we do in future expansions, it'll still be happening "five years since the Calamity".

And seeing a Southern Cross in some swirling crystals (I assume they're in motion and that's a chance arrangement in the screenshot) is really too much of a long shot - particularly seeing as we're in another world with its own constellations.

[Cybylt]

Then if nothing up to this point can be changed, why add the convolution and risky storytelling of time travel at all when you have a perfectly healthy timeline that can just stay background information? It also flies against five years of Warrior of Take a Third Option.

I think this has hit the crux of why I'd rather time travel stay in Alexander land.

If we can change things, consequence is meaningless.
If we can't change things, we've jumped ship of five years of building up WoL as the absolute unknown variable that makes any outcome possible.
If we can't change things up to this point but can make things the "same" to set something up down the road, that's just a convoluted and contrived way of reaching the same conclusions you would have had without time travel... so why have time travel?

[Iscah]

Actually, my main thought on time travel is that (if it happens here) is that it's more likely to be from "near future" to "far future", and not affecting past events at all. I just forgot to bring that up in the focused argument that "time travel is inherently a bad plot device because you could overwrite past plot points and make everything worthless" - which as I said, is not automatically going (or even able) to happen just because time travel itself is possible.

Back to the start of my argument here, time travel in regards to involving G'raha Tia post-Crystal-Tower-imprisonment would involve a jump from now (the current time bubble where he either has been or will be sealed in the Tower) and some future point (where he is either already out, or perhaps we release him). No changing the past, no effect on known events, just a plot piece that only affects the part of the story that introduces it.

It's all up in the air for now, but well-handled time travel if it happens does not in itself risk affecting past events.