Gender locked race?

[cicatriz313]

See, that's something that depends on how you interpret it. When I read it I didn't get that notion at all, and a lot of other people didn't get that idea either. It just looked to be laying out how the society worked. I was expecting male viera to have a culture like that just from how the race was depicted in FF XII. Reclusive forest guardians just made sense to me. I don't see how them being described that way makes them less likely to be playable. The females are described as reclusive as well.

Yeah, I mean take it as you want it. I'm sure anyone who wants male Viera will read it your way. Seems pretty obvious to me that a "times are changing" matriarch society is more likely to interact with the WoL than counterparts who live in solitude for 99% of their lives, but maybe you're right. For like the fourth time, I'm not using lore to say they're not going to be playable. I'm saying that it seems more like the lore is stating that they won't be playable than that the lore is stating that they will be playable. Overall, lore is just lore.

[Lacan]

Yeah, I mean take it as you want it. I'm sure anyone who wants male Viera will read it your way. Seems pretty obvious to me that a "times are changing" matriarch society is more likely to interact with the WoL than counterparts who live in solitude for 99% of their lives, but maybe you're right. For like the fourth time, I'm not using lore to say they're not going to be playable. I'm saying that it seems more like the lore is stating that they won't be playable than that the lore is stating that they will be playable. Overall, lore is just lore.

Yea, I get what you're saying too. I just think things are too muddled right now to make a call one way or another. I know I have a bias because I really want the male viera to be playable, but I do think they intentionally made this stuff open-ended enough for the possibility of playable male viera. They could have just as easily closed the door on that possibility but they didn't. Why mention the males at all to begin with? FF 12 went the entire game without alluding to male viera in any form. We didn't find out they were their own thing till the guidebook released. Up until then a good number of people were convinced that viera were a female only race altogether.

[Shippuu]

Oh but you have made statements about what the developers did do and why they did it. Shall we look at one of the more recent examples?

This should be interesting.

That is a unequivocally statement about why they did do something in the past and according to your little statement above you need hard evidence to prove. Where is it?

No, it isn't an unequivocal statement because it's not self evident that them undoing gender locks meant they felt like that was something that damaged the game in any significant way. Unless they come out and state that was the case, claiming such is just an assumption. I didn't make a statement saying they didn't think gender locks damaged their game, I said them fixing them isn't necessarily indicative they felt that way. And then I said they LIKELY (i.e. probable, potentially, not equivocal in the slightest) one of the things they could use as an opportunity to regain player favor by fixing.
Next.

And the reason you should provide it is because you keep demanding everybody else in this thread supply you with evidence they make a claim you dislike. Failure to do so after demanding left and right everybody else do so is hypocritical.

I ask for evidence (not demand, by the way) because this thread is filled with people making outlandish claims of what SE has or will do, often based on false information or potentially on information I am not aware of, plenty of evidence has been given to me that I did not know about and these things can change my opninion on things.
If someone makes a claim I think isn't backed up by evidence I will ask for it, because there are some pretty big assumptions here. If you make a claim and can't back it up, why should I provide evidence for a counter-claim? That's not how it works.

If it wasn't a major selling point why did you expect it majorly increase their market share in the Chinese and Korean markets? Minor selling points (especially a minor selling point found in many a game in that market) don't significantly increase market shares, major ones do.

There you go putting more words in my mouth, ironically it's the SAME word again. I didn't say it would MAJORLY affect their market share. But thank you for telling me what MY expectations are apparently? I said it was a possible design decision that COULD influence those regions more than the western regions, since people continuously talk like the JP/NA/EU playerbase are the only ones that are factored into this decision. I never said to what degree it would or could effect them, only that it was worth considering.

And statements given by a developer in a interview years prior to the concept art even being developed about how he personally disliked the concept is weaker still. Yet, you have no trouble using that back your claims.

It really isn't though. The words of the director himself, the man in charge of signing off on everything that gets put into the game, are FAR stronger than concept art that may or may not have been approved by him to be further developed. Even after they showed the concept art he went on record stating he still felt the male viera were "too cute", implying he was still not convinced on the concept of male viera, meaning potentially his artists weren't able to come up with a concept that changed his mind on the issue.
I will take the word of the director over some concept art ANY day. The concept art doesn't dictate what goes into the game, the director of the game does.

And one of the possibilities is that the coding was made because they intend both male and female Viera to playable at launch. Why should the "what if/ just so" theories you favor to explain the if/else conditional statements for male Viera player characters be weighed more heavily then those you dislike?

If all we had to go off was that specific line of coding, then I would say it would be stronger evidence, it's when that example is tempered with everything else that it becomes not as strong. There is evidence for both sides, it's just the evidence that they will be genderlocked is a bit stronger, such as the way they have handled the official reveal and information of Viera and the reality that developing two dual gendered races is a lot of work and thus less likely to be the road taken (but still possible).

And there wasn't any Au Ra in Limsa, despite the fact Limsa ships regularly docked in Kugane were Au Ra make up a sizable chunk of the population, prior to Yugiri's arrival. Nor were there any in Ul'Dah prior to Yugiri's arrival, despite the fact that Ul'Dah's largest corporation maintains a branch office in Kugane.

There wasn't any in game lore saying there wasn't though. Only that we never personally saw any doesn't mean they weren't technically supposed to be there. Part of that is due to the nature of adding things to the game. This also applies to the Dramaturge, just because he personally never saw any doesn't mean there aren't any there, however it paints a picture to not expect them. They couldn't show Au Ra because the assets didn't exist prior to that, this information is giving them an excuse to not even need to make the assets for male viera.

Fran specifically says during the quest they are watching you and if she wasn't with you they would have attacked by now. It pays not to skip cutscenes.

Whew, cool accusation I skip cutscenes. Somehow you expect us to just wander into the Raktika greatwoods without some similar plot point to lead us there apparently then? You just proved my point that there will likely be reasons we are exceptions to being allowed into the woods so the whole argument of "male viera would attack us on sight so they have to be in the game" falls apart.

We got special treatment prior in the game when we entered another militant isolationist territory, Ishgard, when we were made a ward of House Fortemps. I remember getting attacked by Ishgardian forces in the MSQ, the Dark Knight class quests, the Astrologian class quests, the Machinist class quests....

Just because other places did it doesn't mean this one will. Ishgard also doesn't have a magical forest voice that talks to all the Viera giving them more cohesion. Next.

And at the same time we might not any special treatment at all. It is just as likely the male Viera find out that the Garlean troops that attacked their homeland are looking for us and decide they can get rid of the Garleans by getting rid of us.

Certainly possible, but less likely. It's more likely they try to get our help to fend of the Empire than anything.

They specifically showed those old designs during the fan fest in Paris two weeks ago. See the 2:10:00 mark

I'm aware. They showed off some of the old concept art, but once again, none of the old stuff was actually used from what we can see implemented into the actual game. They showed the new concept art for the stuff we actually are seeing in the game. They showed the old ones to show the process from how it goes from a rudimentary design from being finalized and fleshed out.

None of this (that we know of) particularly has been shown to actually be in the game (save for potentially that hairstyle that's similar, the viera we've seen do not have that same body type however, and are lacking tails as depicted in that art, meaning while that art was similar, it wasn't the exact design they went with and that's the closest one.)



Compared to the new more finalized art they showed here which will basically be what we are getting.

[Karl0217]

No, it isn't an unequivocal statement because it's not self evident that them undoing gender locks meant they felt like that was something that damaged the game in any significant way. Unless they come out and state that was the case, claiming such is just an assumption....

Ah, in that case your prior statements like

Them undoing the gender locks isn't indicative of them necessarily feeling like they were damaging to the game, but were likely just one of many avenues they could use to earn bonus points with their existing and future playerbase for the relaunch. Just because they did something to try and regain favor after their game failed so bad it damaged the entire brand doesn't mean they will always do such.

are also merely assumptions without anything resembling hard evidence to back them up. Which according to your little wall of text here makes them effectively meaningless and inconsequential.

If you make a claim and can't back it up, why should I provide evidence for a counter-claim? That's not how it works.

Except you haven't provided evidence for any of your statements in any of your posts to anybody in this thread. You continue to make baseless assumption after baseless assumption, from market shares in China/Korea to the reasons why Square Enix removed the 1.0 genderlocks, and then turn around demand evidence the minute somebody posts an opinion you dislike. You don't get to keep doing that and then hide behind weasel words and phrases the minute someone calls you on it.

There you go putting more words in my mouth, ironically it's the SAME word again.... I never said to what degree it would or could effect them, only that it was worth considering.

While positing it with condescending image and a know-it-all attitude. Well, here is your chance to prove you do know it all; explain how a gender-locked race would boost market shares for Square Enix in China and Korea and provide evidence to back it up. Otherwise you are just blowing smoke.

It really isn't though. The words of the director himself, the man in charge of signing off on everything that gets put into the game, are FAR stronger...The concept art doesn't dictate what goes into the game, the director of the game does.

And if the director does something that seriously damages the game's reputation and sales they can and will be replaced by management. Something Yoshida is well aware of considering how he got his current position and what happened to his predecessor. And we are back to the fact you haven't proved that there won't be a major backlash for them re-introducing gender-locks.

There is evidence for both sides, it's just the evidence that they will be genderlocked is a bit stronger, such as the way they have handled the official reveal and information of Viera and the reality that developing two dual gendered races is a lot of work and thus less likely to be the road taken (but still possible).

The official reveal were they said they were having to significantly rework the coding for the helmets and footgear to accommodate the Viera and that they were still in the process of doing so? You know, did it ever occur to you the reason they didn't show case the male Viera might be because Fran's armor was the only gear set they had that didn't cause the game to crash when they slapped it on a Viera character model?

Part of that is due to the nature of adding things to the game. This also applies to the Dramaturge, just because he personally never saw any doesn't mean there aren't any there, however it paints a picture to not expect them

So on one hand you admit that the Dramaturge's statement doesn't necessarily mean there aren't any male Viera in Dalmasca but in the next you still say it should be considered as evidence they won't show up?

You just proved my point that there will likely be reasons we are exceptions to being allowed into the woods so the whole argument of "male viera would attack us on sight so they have to be in the game" falls apart.

The plot point we are heading into the Ra'tika Greatwood and your assumption that we will have some exception to the rule about them attacking outsiders while heading into the woods are two very separate things. After all, to make contact and travel with the head of the Ishgardian Heretics, Iceheart, we first had to head into their territory and get attacked by her followers.

Certainly possible, but less likely. It's more likely they try to get our help to fend of the Empire than anything.

So you think they will get into a life and death struggle with the Empire over their homeland, demand our help, take us into their homeland to fight the Empire and somehow we will never once see male Viera, who form the main line of defense of said homeland, while fighting the Empire in the homeland, which is where all male Viera reside lore-wise? And you were the one who called other people in this thread delusional?