SCH needs some nerfs

[Ftail]

Yes, don't you see the part of my post where I say they need to revert to 4.0 SCH?.

You either never played SCH during 4.0 or you are completely spiteful and just want to punish the class. Almost everyone agrees SCH needs a nerf and WHM needs a buff. It's honestly shocking to see so many salty players agree with you, when did balancing classes stop mattering? Instead of taking down SCH's a peg, you want them taken down five pegs. "SCH mains can stick it out or swap just like WHM..."

I will never agree with you salty players who just want to punish other classes out of spite. I want balance between all the healer classes. SCH needs to be nerfed, but you people want to take it a step beyond that and it's honestly sickening to read.

[Cerenessus]

Somehow it seems, its not even possible to discuss something here.
The only reasonable suggestion in 28 pages was to increase the duration of confession-stacks, the rest is completly illlusory...
Well I´m out... sensless coming here...

[Dualgunner]

Somehow it seems, its not even possible to discuss something here.
The only reasonable suggestion in 28 pages was to increase the duration of confession-stacks, the rest is completly illlusory...
Well I´m out... sensless coming here...

I mean, I answered your prompt. Yes we should ask for content that needs more healing; unfortunately, content that needs more healing is, in this game, considered difficult content. The only content more difficult than Savage in this game (where WHM v SCH v AST matters) is Ultimate, which coincidentally is the content that needs the most healing is Ultimate, which we have asked for more of, but we've been told no more until 5.0.

So your only offering from that post was moot.

[Ftail]

Funnily enough, before Indom was buffed it did just fine in Deltascape. They only gave them Miasma 2 back if I remember right in regards to 4.0 fixes.

You remember wrong. SCH got significant changes every single patch since 4.0 and got repeatedly buffed.

4.05 Emergency Tactics Recast time reduced from 30 to 20 seconds.
Indomitability Healing potency increased from 400 to 500.
Excogitation Healing potency increased from 650 to 800. Duration increased from 30 to 45 seconds. Recast time reduced from 60 to 45 seconds.
Fey Union Range increased from 10 to 15 yalms. The Faerie Gauge will no longer deplete when channeling from Fey Union is interrupted.
Aetherpact Aetherflow actions are no longer required to inflict an effect on a target to increase the Faerie Gauge.
Quickened Aetherflow Reduction to the recast time of Aetherflow changed from 10 to 5 seconds.
Chance to reduce the recast time of Aetherflow increased from 20% to 100%.

4.1 Summon Cast time reduced from 6 to 3 seconds.MP cost reduced.
Summon II Cast time reduced from 6 to 3 seconds.MP cost reduced.
Adloquium MP cost reduced.
Succor MP cost reduced. Barrier effect increased from 100% to 150% the amount of HP restored.
Fey Caress When in Sic mode, Selene will now activate Fey Caress when inflicted with an enfeeblement that can be removed with this skill.

4.2 Excogitation The effect "Grants target party member other than self the effect of Excogitation, restoring HP when member's HP falls below 50%." has been changed to "Grants target party member other than self the effect of Excogitation, restoring HP when member's HP falls below 50% or upon effect duration expiration."

4.3 Whispering Dawn Action category has been changed from Spell to Ability.Cast time has been made instant.Healing potency has been increased from 100 to 120.
Aetherpact Recast time has been reduced from 5 to 3 seconds.
Fey Union Fey Union can now be interrupted to order faeries to use another action.
Dissolve Union Recast time has been reduced from 5 seconds to 1 second.

4.4 Sacred Soil The effect is now applied as soon as the action is used.
Shadow Flare The effect is now applied as soon as the action is used.

These are just a few of the patches. Honestly, SCH needs a nerf and WHM needs a buff. But people saying to return to 4.0 SCH either have an agenda to punish SCH or they don't understand the significant changes made to it.

[Deceptus]

You remember wrong. SCH got significant changes every single patch since 4.0 and got repeatedly buffed.

- Excogitation Healing potency increased from 650 to 800. Duration increased from 30 to 45 seconds. Recast time reduced from 60 to 45 seconds.
- Fey Union Range increased from 10 to 15 yalms. The Faerie Gauge will no longer deplete when channeling from Fey Union is interrupted.
- Aetherpact Aetherflow actions are no longer required to inflict an effect on a target to increase the Faerie Gauge.
- Adloquium MP cost reduced.

4.2 Excogitation The effect "Grants target party member other than self the effect of Excogitation, restoring HP when member's HP falls below 50%." has been changed to "Grants target party member other than self the effect of Excogitation, restoring HP when member's HP falls below 50% or upon effect duration expiration."

4.3 Whispering Dawn Action category has been changed from Spell to Ability.Cast time has been made instant.Healing potency has been increased from 100 to 120.
- Aetherpact Recast time has been reduced from 5 to 3 seconds.
- Fey Union Fey Union can now be interrupted to order faeries to use another action.
- Dissolve Union Recast time has been reduced from 5 seconds to 1 second.

Most of these were desperately needed QOL buffs (They changed the way AOE started damage for other jobs as well)

The Excog change was needed because there were times where you'd put it on and the tank would stay above 50% and it was a wasted aether stack. Also before the potency increase it was only nominally more than a Lustrate. Now if your tank is <50%, you should be casting Excog if it's up.

Fey Union was changed because it was clunky as hell. There would be times you'd mash the button and nothing would happen.

The Whispering Dawn change was a straight up nerf. A pretty major one. Don't know why you put it on the list of "buffs". Now WD isn't affected by Rouse or Largesse. Many are of the mindset it's because the dev's acknowledged SCH was getting to good in the aoe department. So they increased player ability healing and decreased pet healing. You know, balance.

Same with

Quickened Aetherflow Reduction to the recast time of Aetherflow changed from 10 to 5 seconds. This was AFTER they reduced the MP gain from Energy Drain

It's almost like context is really important when looking at balance changes and you can't look at isolated events.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

What I don't get is how they spent literally the entire expansion fine-tuning and perfecting SCH until it's the best healer in the game uncontested, yet WHM who had a horrible job mechanic that doesn't play to any of their strengths or benefits them in any significant way, and a trait that I'm almost convinced even SE forgot about with how utterly useless and unnoticeable it is has barely been touched.

I want to believe it's because they're overhauling them anyway so there's no point in touching things now, but that's me being optimistic. SE is stubborn and i can totally see them trying to double down on the awful Lily system rather than start over unfortunately.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

What I don't get is how they spent literally the entire expansion fine-tuning and perfecting SCH until it's the best healer in the game uncontested, yet WHM who had a horrible job mechanic that doesn't play to any of their strengths or benefits them in any significant way, and a trait that I'm almost convinced even SE forgot about with how utterly useless and unnoticeable it is has barely been touched.

I want to believe it's because they're overhauling them anyway so there's no point in touching things now, but that's me being optimistic. SE is stubborn and i can totally see them trying to double down on the awful Lily system rather than start over unfortunately.

I suspect because they stubbornly refuse to balance around how we actually play the game. As a more aggressive healer who spends little time DPSing, WHM would look pretty decent. It's also arguably the best dungeon healer. And we know they like balancing around dungeons for whatever asinine reason. Basically, WHM's flaws aren't emphasised enough outside a raid environment. DRK is another example of this. Look how quickly they backpedaled because the WF UcoB group ran DRK/PLD. Meanwhile, 4.0 SCH was more or less worthless in dungeons and wasn't exactly stellar in eight man content either.

The one hope WHM has right now is how utterly dominate AST became in Alphascape. Even JP has been favoring it over WHM, and they're notoriously less meta centric. That being said, the devs need to make a choice regarding WHM:

1) Fully commit to the raw healer identity, letting it practically solo heal—therein by making up for its lack of utility through potentially allowing five DPS comps
2) Give it proper utility; Bravery/Cheer come to mind. A 5-8% aoe Balance equivalent but no RNG. Something which allows it to compete with SCH/AST in the buff department. Unless*

Much as I want WHM to go the utility route. I won't deny the idea of a truly dedicated healer would be interesting. Of course, I don't know how much I trust SE balancing such a concept. But they have to pick one come 5.0 otherwise WHM will once again die.

*With that all said, I actually want Balance changed to Direct Hit. One of the significant factors in the meta wars as a whole is how Balance is undeniably the best card. If it were moved to secondary stats exclusively, except Bole, it'd have far less an impact. Food for thought, I suppose.

[Jinzhu]

You remember wrong. SCH got significant changes every single patch since 4.0 and got repeatedly buffed.

These are just a few of the patches. Honestly, SCH needs a nerf and WHM needs a buff. But people saying to return to 4.0 SCH either have an agenda to punish SCH or they don't understand the significant changes made to it.

Most of what you listed are good class changes and QoL that the person above pointed. The only thing I can really see being a fair nerf to SCH is a nerf to Indom back to 400 potency or a recast time change so you can get only 1 per Aetherflow Cycle instead of 2. An Embrace nerf is also needed. Frankly Embrace is the most broken part about SCH. In high level gameplay or lower tier gameplay Embrace is equally busted, but i've already spoke about it before in the thread before.

To put into perspective in a high level environment the change to Indom being 400 potency would do virtually nothing but would affect midtier players as 1. You don't do a single Indom in O9-O11 (obviously not everyone is in an equal group compared to mine but still you wouldn't even feel it) and 2. You would probably just end up using more Aspected Helios/Medica 2 most likely instead of Indom unless that Indom would push you over the HP threshold to live. (i.e you need 40000 HP to live and have 15000 HP. A 400 potency Indom would only do like 10K healing where an AH/Med 2 could barely push you over the safety net. This would be because of the obvious gap between potencies and would have more potential to save resources.

[Deceptus]

Most of what you listed are good class changes and QoL that the person above pointed. The only thing I can really see being a fair nerf to SCH is a nerf to Indom back to 400 potency or a recast time change so you can get only 1 per Aetherflow Cycle instead of 2. An Embrace nerf is also needed. Frankly Embrace is the most broken part about SCH. In high level gameplay or lower tier gameplay Embrace is equally busted, but i've already spoke about it before in the thread before.

Embrace has already been nerfed before. And even if the tooltip says 250 potency, it's really not due to the pet tax. Pets scale lower than players, by about 33%. So Embrace's "250p" really only heals equivalent to what about 165p-180p would be from a player.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

Embrace has already been nerfed before. And even if the tooltip says 250 potency, it's really not due to the pet tax. Pets scale lower than players, by about 33%. So Embrace's "250p" really only heals equivalent to what about 165p-180p would be from a player.

That's the thing. Even with a previous nerf Embrace is really broken.
Imagine a free Regen tick from WHM, but it's on the tank 100% of the time, costs no MP, no GCD and can be buffed by rouse to heal even more.
Honestly while it seems unimaginable, Embrace either needs to have a CD (a really short one), needs to cost some MP or needs to be manually casted by the SCH. Even not looking at endgame content, the fact that it can solo heal almost all the dungeon content in the game is silly and never should have been ignored.