Late to the BLU Party

[Burningskull]

Easiest way to make Blue Mage work in this game is to just make it job quest centric. Ex.

You go to your trainer, he says go learn X skill by fighting X mobs. Let's say cactuars. You go out into the world, fight the cactuars in the open world till you learn the spell. This way you don't have 49+ abilities that you have to balance and worry about which ones a Blue Mage has or doesn't have and the Blue Mage has about as many abilities as the regular jobs. Add some gimmick where one spell combos into another spell like for example 1,000 needles > 10,000 needles, etc. etc. Or some other gimmick like if you use one spell followed by another spell the party gets a buff or the mob gets a debuff or what have you.

Just a thought but take a book out of Ninja's book in FFXI. Let's say you use Aqua Breath. The mob now has a debuff called Soaked. If you use Thunder Breath or Lightning Breath, w/e it's called, it'll do more damage cause you used Aqua Breath first.

[jon041065]

Easiest way to make Blue Mage work in this game is to just make it job quest centric. Ex.

You go to your trainer, he says go learn X skill by fighting X mobs. Let's say cactuars. You go out into the world, fight the cactuars in the open world till you learn the spell. This way you don't have 49+ abilities that you have to balance and worry about which ones a Blue Mage has or doesn't have and the Blue Mage has about as many abilities as the regular jobs. Add some gimmick where one spell combos into another spell like for example 1,000 needles > 10,000 needles, etc. etc. Or some other gimmick like if you use one spell followed by another spell the party gets a buff or the mob gets a debuff or what have you.

Just a thought but take a book out of Ninja's book in FFXI. Let's say you use Aqua Breath. The mob now has a debuff called Soaked. If you use Thunder Breath or Lightning Breath, w/e it's called, it'll do more damage cause you used Aqua Breath first.

This is pretty much what I thought it was going to be like. You have a spell hunting log for 6-10 that you have to go kill X many of each mob to learn their spells then bring the completed log to pick up the level 10 quest. Finish that quest to get a passive to learn higher level spells and the next page in the log. The learning method wasn't that important to me so I'm fine with what they went with but then for the devs to use that as an excuse to limited blue mage is absurd.

[KokoChibata]

So I get the OP is a lil... salty about the whole "limited job" thing but there are a few good reasons for why its being done this way. First off we are getting 49 spells and a level cap of 50 TO START WITH. These will be increased with patches we will be able to learn more skills and go beyond level 50. This was done most likely to get it released on schedual. Creating skills animations etc takes time so to offset this the job is releaseing at lvl 50 with 49 spells at 4.5 this works out to one spell shy of one spell per level. Second the only real content BLU is barred from is pvp they can still run dungeons trials and raids as long as its for the lvl cap they have and again the level cap as well as how many spells we can aquire will increase with patches. While they cant run PoTD or roulettes they will be given more exp per mob then any other job to help them level. This does a couple things it makes leves viable for leveling and it makes fates even better for leveling. Spells are also going to be "rarely" learned. They are taking a page from FFXI on this one as its the same way BLU got spells on there. This way of aquireing spells brings about the Blue Magic Learning Party. A party or alliance of all BLU go out and farm spells. If you want to run a dungeon there is nothing stopping you grab yer friends and que up keep in mind it cant be a roulette but its better then not being able to run any at all. The same goes for trials and raids. Another point is we arent getting watered down versions of the monster skills we are getting the full force abilities. Some of these abilities would be a tad over powered for regular content. And well thats part of the fun really I prefer having OP skills rather then watered down versions thats the road FFXI took and ya BLU was fun but it felt like every other job on 11. Chances are most of the restrictions will be removed eventually just give it time.

[jon041065]

So I get the OP is a lil... salty about the whole "limited job" thing but there are a few good reasons for why its being done this way. First off we are getting 49 spells and a level cap of 50 TO START WITH. These will be increased with patches we will be able to learn more skills and go beyond level 50. This was done most likely to get it released on schedual. Creating skills animations etc takes time so to offset this the job is releaseing at lvl 50 with 49 spells at 4.5 this works out to one spell shy of one spell per level.

Barely anyone is complaining about this.

Second the only real content BLU is barred from is pvp they can still run dungeons trials and raids as long as its for the lvl cap they have and again the level cap as well as how many spells we can aquire will increase with patches. While they cant run PoTD or roulettes they will be given more exp per mob then any other job to help them level. This does a couple things it makes leves viable for leveling and it makes fates even better for leveling.

Can't do Palace of the Dead or current content including MSQ. Also, we don't know how much bonus exp open world kills will get you so it's too early to say it makes up for PotD not being an option.

Spells are also going to be "rarely" learned. They are taking a page from FFXI on this one as its the same way BLU got spells on there. This way of aquireing spells brings about the Blue Magic Learning Party. A party or alliance of all BLU go out and farm spells.

The only spell I remember actually making a party or an alliance for was Body Slam from the dragons on the west side of Mount Zhayolm. Most spells were learned solo or just while you were exp grinding. Do others that played blu on XI not remember your party members telling you "grats!" when you said you learned a spell like off the bats in Garlaige Citadel? Why can't that happen on 14 as well while running a dungeon with random people?

If you want to run a dungeon there is nothing stopping you grab yer friends and que up keep in mind it cant be a roulette but its better then not being able to run any at all. The same goes for trials and raids.

Yeah it's better than not being able to run anything but what about people to play late at night/early in the morning or have severe social anxiety and have to depend on matchmaking? Also, good luck getting 23 other people to make full party finder groups after February.

Another point is we arent getting watered down versions of the monster skills we are getting the full force abilities. Some of these abilities would be a tad over powered for regular content. And well thats part of the fun really I prefer having OP skills rather then watered down versions thats the road FFXI took and ya BLU was fun but it felt like every other job on 11. Chances are most of the restrictions will be removed eventually just give it time.

Instead we are getting a highly requested job as a mini-game. It's fine if you want the OP stuff to go solo with but others like myself want a balanced version of blue mage to do the content that interests us. Why can't we ask for that? You say the restrictions will probably be removed but that will only happen if the player base changes their mind. They didn't state that this was a test phase and were pretty clear on their design choices.

[Fyce]

Dude, you DID give false information. I read your post. I don't think it's fair to discount spells as gimmicks just because they do elemental damage. Those are by definition direct damage spells! Like... you completely arbitrarily count a spell as gimmicky just because it has an element to prove your point and get your 95% figure. So a spell has to do non-elemental, direct damage with no status effects to be a damage dealing standard spell in classic Final Fantasy and to fit into FFXIV accurately? In that case Blue Mage is literally the most suited classic spellcaster, because 2 non-elemental direct damage spells is more than almost any other classic job. Is classic Black Mage a gimmick heavy class? It traditionally only has one direct damage non-elemental spell, Flare. Or classic Summoner, because the majority of their spells are elemental, so why are they DPS? Should they be limited too because 95% of their spells are "gimmicks"? You are actively misrepresenting the jobs skillset to reach that 95% number. But I won't say "please never argue with me again" and insult your knowledge, intelligence, or care for the class, because that is disrespectful.

First, I never said that Elemental skills where "gimmicky". The only thing even remotly close to that was when I took Aqua Breath, Goblin Punch and 1000 Needles as examples to say that these skills were not only direct neutral damage spells, but had a gimmick attached to them (Aqua Breath dealing more damage to Desert enemies, Goblin Punch taking enemies level into account, and 1000 Needles dealing fixed damage). The post was also answering to someone saying that BLU -for them- was all about nuke skills. It is a fact that 95% of the skills I listed are not nuke skills. I don't even know how you can argue against that.

Whatever the case, Elemental damage is -in the context of games with elemental resistances and weaknesses- situational, yes. Like it or not. Saying no would show a complete lack of knowledge as to what situational even means. You wouldn't use a Fire spell on Ifrit in most previous titles. And if you had the choice between two elemental skills, you'd choose the one that'd exploit the most the elemental weaknesses of the enemies. That's the very definition of situational skills: used in certain situations. And BLU's toolkit across a majority of previous FF titles was absolutly full of these skills. There's no possibility of denying that.

Removing BLU of its situational skills, and/or making everything deal non-elemental damage DOES hurt what Blue Magic is about. Just like what happened to Black Mage when they lost their elemental skills just to fit the 2.0 mold. Stripping a toolkit from its very purpose is an identity loss. I don't even know how you can question that.

You say in one line you're not meaning to disparage anyone's opinions, and then immediately say that other ideas of the class don't have as much "weight". Saying "if you don't really care about it in the end" is implying people who don't agree with you to a certain degree don't care about the class. I'll say your argument is disrespectful, but (and the sentence in italics in my previous post was sarcasm) I would never accuse or insinuate that you or anyone else doesn't care about the class regardless of what they like about it and how they want it implemented in the game, because we are all here caring enough about it that we are discussing and arguing about it. Well, short of someone saying "I don't care about Blue Mage, but...", but there are people doing that both in support of, and against the Limited version.

You can find arguments weak all you'd like, I do too. But do you realize that asking questions like "What do they even like about Blue Mage" has an aggressive, dismissive tone? Those have the implication that you can't imagine a single thing someone likes about Blue Mage that would allow them to both want it in the game fully, and like the job. Maybe you don't see it, and if it wasn't your intent, great. I (hopefully) didn't say anything attacking YOU individually, if it came off that way, I apologize. However, that doesn't make the argument or method you're using any less offensive. It seems that, relatively, a lot of people agreed with my original response to you and how your points came off, and while I don't normally like to appeal to what people think collectively, when we're talking about how your words can be interpreted and the tone they convey, I think it's valid.

Respecting people's opinion doesn't mean that I have to agree with it or find that opinion strong or even valid. I can respect the right of someone to express their opinions, but it doesn't mean that I cannot question them.
If people are fine with removing every aspect of BLU's toolkit, as long as they can play the job like any other, I'm sorry but yes, it does show that you don't really care about that toolkit I described above. That's not me disrespecting someone. That's me saying to others "your opinion looks like you don't care about what others might consider as important aspects of the job". That's the very reason why I gave people a chance at describing what they do care about. You definitly got my intentions and the goal of my post completly wrong.

Saying "what do you actually like in that job, since you are okay with throwing a lot of things away to make it fit the mold?" is definitly not the same as saying "you guys don't care about BLU!".

And yes, I do understand that what I asked could be taken as an aggression, but when people show that they absolutly don't care about some aspects of the job that are key to its identity, and get entitled about the job as to say that "all battle jobs should be able to do exactly the same stuff!", I REALLY don't have to be kind when asking my question.
A lot of people here absolutly don't care about BLU toolkit. When I ask if people would like the job to be butchered and stripped from a lot of its identity to fit the FFXIV mold, a lot of answers are simply "yes". So I think it's fine to ask what do they like about the job so much that isn't related to what they are fine with throwing away. And if you take that as an aggression or disrespect, then don't come on forums where people with conflicting opinions might question yours in a way you don't like.

Those have the implication that you can't imagine a single thing someone likes about Blue Mage that would allow them to both want it in the game fully, and like the job.

Why do you think I was asking exactly that? I completly admitted that I had no idea what they actually liked about the job. That was the very reason of why I asked about it!

Maybe you don't see it, and if it wasn't your intent, great. I (hopefully) didn't say anything attacking YOU individually, if it came off that way, I apologize.

You put words in my mouth. You got me wrong. You accused me of being disrespectful. You accused me of giving false information. I refute absolutly everything you said in that regards.
You also didn't contribute anything to my point. You whole post was just a big ad hominem against me and the way I asked my question. I'm sorry but being apologetic while making a SECOND post with exactly the same claims feel absolutly dishonest and far from being sincere.

[jon041065]

I can understand your point but it goes back to what I was saying in my post on the previous page. To you and others, what the spells have done in the past is a huge part of the identity of blue mage. I can agree with that one some level. Myself and others view blue mage as a job that can use enemy abilities and are fine with some concessions with the spells IF the end result still feels similar to us.

I don't think you were fighting against us feeling that way until this paragraph.

And yes, I do understand that what I asked could be taken as an aggression, but when people show that they absolutly don't care about some aspects of the job that are key to its identity, and get entitled about the job as to say that "all battle jobs should be able to do exactly the same stuff!", I REALLY don't have to be kind when asking my question.
A lot of people here absolutly don't care about BLU toolkit. When I ask if people would like the job to be butchered and stripped from a lot of its identity to fit the FFXIV mold, a lot of answers are simply "yes". So I think it's fine to ask what do they like about the job so much that isn't related to what they are fine with throwing away. And if you take that as an aggression or disrespect, then don't come on forums where people with conflicting opinions might question yours in a way you don't like.

I wouldn't say it's being entitled to expect a combat job to be available in the full game as all other combat jobs so far. You say that we (maybe you're actually talking about people that said they don't care at all idk) don't care at all about the toolkit because we are fine not getting the exact tooltip and function of the spells that they previously had. We don't care if it's not exactly the same but we do care that if feels similar. You used goblin punch as an example and are using the version that works base off the target's level. Would there be something wrong with using the FFT or FFTA versions? What about FFIX's version but using one of the character stats besides level for the damage calculation? Like "25% of your combined determination, spell speed, and crit" or something else. Not everyone would be happy if they did this obviously but it is a valid option for the future and they still could just have an alternate version of the job that's balanced and leave the meme stuff alone so that can still be enjoyed by those that want it.

[SDaemon]

I can understand your point but it goes back to what I was saying in my post on the previous page. To you and others, what the spells have done in the past is a huge part of the identity of blue mage. I can agree with that one some level. Myself and others view blue mage as a job that can use enemy abilities and are fine with some concessions with the spells IF the end result still feels similar to us.

I don't think you were fighting against us feeling that way until this paragraph.



I wouldn't say it's being entitled to expect a combat job to be available in the full game as all other combat jobs so far. You say that we (maybe you're actually talking about people that said they don't care at all idk) don't care at all about the toolkit because we are fine not getting the exact tooltip and function of the spells that they previously had. We don't care if it's not exactly the same but we do care that if feels similar. You used goblin punch as an example and are using the version that works base off the target's level. Would there be something wrong with using the FFT or FFTA versions? What about FFIX's version but using one of the character stats besides level for the damage calculation? Like "25% of your combined determination, spell speed, and crit" or something else. Not everyone would be happy if they did this obviously but it is a valid option for the future and they still could just have an alternate version of the job that's balanced and leave the meme stuff alone so that can still be enjoyed by those that want it.

Goblin Punch:

FFT : Damage = Users Max HP - Current HP
FFTA: Damage = [Rand128..384∗Damage/256] (50% to 150% of damage) * essentially the damage is going to constantly vary with no reliability.

How would either of those variants reliably work in a rotation besides spam on cooldown and hope the damage is meaningful?

[jon041065]

Goblin Punch:

FFT : Damage = Users Max HP - Current HP
FFTA: Damage = [Rand128..384∗Damage/256] (50% to 150% of damage) * essentially the damage is going to constantly vary with no reliability.

How would either of those variants reliably work in a rotation besides spam on cooldown and hope the damage is meaningful?

Goblin Punch usually had some variance in how much potential damage it could do so why is that a problem if we are trying to keep the same feel if not the exact same spell as past FF games?

Never said it would have to be part of the core rotation. Goblin Punch could be on a medium length cooldown.

Could put like a 25 sec cooldown on it and have it be something you hit when you get low on HP or be an ogcd attack with 50-400 potency.

[SDaemon]

Goblin Punch usually had some variance in how much potential damage it could do so why is that a problem if we are trying to keep the same feel if not the exact same spell as past FF games?

Never said it would have to be part of the core rotation. Goblin Punch could be on a medium length cooldown.

Could put like a 25 sec cooldown on it and have it be something you hit when you get low on HP or be an ogcd attack with 50-400 potency.

So something situational and gimmicky that either does a bunch of damage/no damage or inconsistent damage. Neither option is pleasant from a dps prospective, the second at least can be somewhat of a boon as it'd be oGCD but still wholly lackluster and would just turn into a press on cooldown and hope the RNG Gods are happy with you.

Honestly, unless it became a normal attack with a static potency or had a static potency buff based on a consistently executable behavior it'd just be a joke skill in trials/raids. FFIV and FFV had a Goblin Punch similar to this.

[jon041065]

So something situational and gimmicky that either does a bunch of damage/no damage or inconsistent damage. Neither option is pleasant from a dps prospective, the second at least can be somewhat of a boon as it'd be oGCD but still wholly lackluster and would just turn into a press on cooldown and hope the RNG Gods are happy with you.

Honestly, unless it became a normal attack with a static potency or had a static potency buff based on a consistently executable behavior it'd just be a joke skill in trials/raids. FFIV and FFV had a Goblin Punch similar to this.

I'm not actually advocating that Goblin Punch be like any of these examples but was trying to make a point that there are other versions of the spells and ways to work them into 14.

The HP one would have to work off a potency range with the higher range being when you're at lower HP. Could be something you used on cooldown or something you planned ahead to use like after taking a large hit. A possible issue would be people intentionally getting their HP low or having healers leave them low in order to get the most out of it.

The rng one would be fine as long as most of the blue spells were not like it. Just one would be okay imo.

Were you one of the people saying that the spells have to be how they were in past FF game or were you willing to have spells that felt the same?

If it were up to me, I'd go with what this person has for the spell if they make blu able to be a tank someday. https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...concept_pitch/

If blu remains a caster dps or can be melee, then I'd give it like 100 potency with chance to hit for 300 and then it's also earth damage for spell weaving/combo purposes like I described here. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l-Blu-Concepts

Anyway, we don't know for sure if Goblin Punch is even in the game and how it will work if it is.