Drk: worst designed class

[Megguido]

Your point, DRK being the worst designed class, is kinda subjective. And to prove it you make wonky comparisons.

While they have soul eater (very little hp gain), I feel like the job compared to Warrior who can spam inner beast and gain 8.7k hp per hit and equilibrium that can go up to 25k hp

Two things here:
- Souleater heals like twice as much as WAR's Storm's path, even with Grit's damage debuff
- Both Inner Beast and Equilibirum require to be in tank stance as well

What makes Souleater healing "very little hp gain" is that it's locked behind Grit. But you don't mention that a DA'ed Souleater can heal for 8k+ HP.

Sure they got soul sacrifice giving some minor hp gain but it's simply not enough compared to war or paladins that can spam heals.

WAR and PLD heals sure are more powerful than Sole Survivor, but they aren't free. Inner Best / Equilibrium require tank stance, Clemency is a GCD and consumes mana which delays the following Requiescat buff, for example.

While we have blackest night shield, it still costs us a lot of mp and it's "nice" but nowhere near paladin and warrior.

> Having one of the most powerful defensive tool in the game
> Calls it "nice but ok"

We're talking about a 20% max HP shield, available every 15 seconds, that costs MP but returns blood. WAR got an equivalent, it's called Thrill of Battle, and it has a 120s cooldown. You can use TBN to :
- mitigate a tankbuster
- take no damage from a raid-wide AoE
- nullify one or two auto attacks
- convert MP to blood to prevent overcapping mana
- manipulate your GCD to end a phase on a Souleater instead of Hard Slash

I'm not saying DRK isn't in need of some changes, but it's not about performance and more about gameplay. Current DRK has a very good personal mitigation, and its DPS is slightly above PLD at every percentile. Performance-wise, DRK is pretty good. I just hope they won't make DRK's gameplay as sluggish as WAR and PLD, I love playing a fast paced tank.

EDIT:

Since DRK is one of the jobs that most heavily utilizes both TP and MP

How the f. do you heavily use TP on DRK ? This ressource could just be gone and it would be exactly the same.

[Reynhart]

What makes Souleater healing "very little hp gain" is that it's locked behind Grit.

So,it's the same as WAR.

WAR and PLD heals sure are more powerful than Sole Survivor, but they aren't free. Inner Best / Equilibrium require tank stance, Clemency is a GCD and consumes mana which delays the following Requiescat buff, for example.

Sure, they're not free, but both WAR and PLD can recover a large amount of MP is a small window if something goes really bad. It's not optimal but having the option to spam 2 or 3 IB and Equilibrium just after Holmgang or spending your whole MP bar on Clemencies in 10 seconds max can save your life.

For me, DRK should have a way to heal back a lot of HP once in a while that would synergize a little better with Living Dead. For example, if Sole Survivor could place an HP leech debuff instead of recovering at the end, then, for that short period of time, every attack you'd make would heal you (Not 100% of dmg of course) which would help fix the image of DRK having a harder time recovering from bad situations than other tanks.

Fun fact for those who didn't play FFXI, the ultimate skill of DRK there, commonly used as an Oh!Sh*t! button (Once every 2h) had the effect of convertig 100% of your AA damage back to HP and was named Blood Weapon.

[Megguido]

Sure, they're not free, but both WAR and PLD can recover a large amount of MP is a small window if something goes really bad. It's not optimal but having the option to spam 2 or 3 IB and Equilibrium just after Holmgang or spending your whole MP bar on Clemencies in 10 seconds max can save your life.

I agree on that. DRK's mitigation is good in raids, but it lacks the "independance" that both WAR and PLD have, with self-sustain.

But let's stay realistic, how would they tune DRK's defensive kit if they had a reliable life leech ? Dark Mind and TBN are already on a very short recast. Combine those two with Living Dead and the ability to self sustain up to full HP and you get an unkillable tank.

So,it's the same as WAR.

My point was, current Souleater restores about 80% of the damage as HP which is not that bad actually, and pretty much like WAR they have to switch to tank stance to benefit from it. Currently, all tanks have to sacrifice damage to self heal, and DRK's the least efficient at it.

[Reynhart]

But let's stay realistic, how would they tune DRK's defensive kit if they had a reliable life leech ? Dark Mind and TBN are already on a very short recast. Combine those two with Living Dead and the ability to self sustain up to full HP and you get an unkillable tank.

I personally wouldn't mind losing Dark Mind in exchange for a life leech on Sole Survivor. But even as it is now, WAR and PLD already have some short CD, pretty strong self-healing and a better ultimate mitigation move, so I'm not even sure DRK should have to sacrifice anything.

To be fair, I don't think DRK should be able to leech its max HP amount, but it point another "flaw". Right now, whenever you have to do something solo as a PLD or a WAR, you can recover on your own if you're ever in need of using your "I won't die button". On its own, DRK using Living Dead is either useless or a death sentence. So, maybe the mechanic of Living Dead needs to change.

I had an idea a long time ago that Living Dead should create a zombie/clone/shadow/grim_reaper/whatever_you_want_to_call_it if you reach 1 HP (With the same HP as your max HP), and that you needed to kill it before the WD timer reaches 0. So, a solo DRK with a Sole Survivor HP leech could recover some HP (I'd say about half with the effect alone for its full duration) and kill the target on its own to survive Living Dead and keep fighting.

Since WAR and PLD can recover much more than half of their max HP every 2 minutes, I don't think it would be overpowered.

[DaulBan]

I personally wouldn't mind losing Dark Mind in exchange for a life leech on Sole Survivor.

[Lyth]

If you go back and actually look at the context of that post that you've cherry-picked out from about a month ago (I didn't know that PLDs could raise dead this expansion), it's not an unreasonable point.

Viewed in isolation, Dark Mind is probably a bit too strong. But that's also a reflection of the fact that tank mitigation, on the whole, is much too strong. I think that even if every tank was limited to Rampart, a 30%/120s cooldown, a 5+ min recast invincibility move, and Sheltron/IB/TBN, you'd still power through most of the encounters we've seen designed this expansion.

Right now, tanks are simplified melee dps who pop mitigation cooldowns on a set, fight-specific rotation. The devs, in their infinite wisdom, seem to think that we do too much dps. So if you take that element away, at least the mitigation end of things needs to be more challenging.

I think that the entire suite of tank defensive abilities needs to be re-evaluated. Dark Mind should be removed. So, too, should Thrill of Battle and Raw Intuition, with Holmgang increased to at least a 5 minute recast. Inner Beast should be stance independent so that you actually have to use it to clear content. Sentinel should be dropped down to a 2 minute recast. Cover should be merged with Intervention and incorporated into the underutilised PLD gauge system. Bulwark should be a traited form of Anticipation.

So yeah, Dark Mind is a problem, but it's also part of a much, much bigger problem across all tanks.

As for lifesteal - well, probably the number one thing that people have been asking for is a clear cut identity for jobs like DRK, WHM, and MCH. I'm fully behind the idea of making DRK into a lifesteal-themed tank. WAR can go do something else, as far as I'm concerned, unless they want to give up having the best burst dps and the best burst enmity as their schtick. You can't be everything at once.

[Shurrikhan]

As for lifesteal - well, probably the number one thing that people have been asking for is a clear cut identity for jobs like DRK, WHM, and MCH. I'm fully behind the idea of making DRK into a lifesteal-themed tank. WAR can go do something else, as far as I'm concerned, unless they want to give up having the best burst dps and the best burst enmity as their schtick. You can't be everything at once.

Is Lifesteal really a sufficient mechanic by which to differentiate oneself, though? It's at best a mechanic of heightened sustain without eMHP bonuses. That's no better than differentiating oneself off HoTs or sustained DPS. They're things that can help make more vivid identities work cohesively, aesthetically and functionally, but not nearly enough unto themselves.

[ManuelBravo]

I miss FFXI DRK more power O.o/ while I main tank DRK it shoudl be a tad bit more powerful. That or give us a stance that sacrifices defense for offense. Besides dark side -.-

[shao32]

Your point, DRK being the worst designed class, is kinda subjective.

i don't consider it subjetive, DRK, WHM and MCH are the worst desingned jobs this expansion, clunkynes, lack of sinergy betwen you own skills, clipping problems all around or just useles gauge mechanics.

DRK cliping isues bcs dark arts animation is pretty long is a comong thing betwen high ping players and in less degree with low ping players too.

Two things here:
- Souleater heals like twice as much as WAR's Storm's path, even with Grit's damage debuff
- Both Inner Beast and Equilibirum require to be in tank stance as well

What makes Souleater healing "very little hp gain" is that it's locked behind Grit. But you don't mention that a DA'ed Souleater can heal for 8k+ HP.

soul eater heals me less that 6k with ilvl 391, with crit direct hit around 9k, while my WAR despite having byakko axe heals around 4k around deliverance and over 2-2.5k without unchained in defiance and inner beast around 7k with combained with stom path are almost constant 9k regulary and i din't count crit+direct hits amount, WAR selfhealing is far superior on deliverance and defiance since DRK can't heal himself gritless outside of sole survivor and the worst thing is sole survivor heal can't be use properly and most of the time is just ends being a overheal, and i din't mention equilibrium with used properly you can heal yourself a huge a mount of HP after every TB on defiance for free.

WAR and PLD heals sure are more powerful than Sole Survivor, but they aren't free. Inner Best / Equilibrium require tank stance, Clemency is a GCD and consumes mana which delays the following Requiescat buff, for example.

for compare WAR and PLD selfheals with DRK ones its have to be compared with and without tank stance since tank stance is the universal cont betwen all 3.

- outside of tank stance
-PLD have clemency, cost oGDC and MP, its pretty costly but can be used freely when
you need.
-WAR have thrill of battle (free) and storm path (free)
-DRK have sole survivor and can't be sync with uncoming damage or you healers, the
heal can heal you properly or being a overheal becoming a "waste" (since we use SS
for the MP mostly)

- in tank stance
-PLD have clemency, cost oGDC and MP its pretty costly but can be used freely when
you need.(just the same conts as in sword oath).
-WAR thrill of battle (free), stom path (free), equilibrium (free), inner beast (free).
-DRK sole survivor (just the same as before), soul eater (free).

> Having one of the most powerful defensive tool in the game
> Calls it "nice but ok"

We're talking about a 20% max HP shield, available every 15 seconds, that costs MP but returns blood. WAR got an equivalent, it's called Thrill of Battle, and it has a 120s cooldown. You can use TBN to :
- mitigate a tankbuster
- take no damage from a raid-wide AoE
- nullify one or two auto attacks
- convert MP to blood to prevent overcapping mana
- manipulate your GCD to end a phase on a Souleater instead of Hard Slash

TBN is the equivalent to inner beast and sheltron both short recast both being porweful mitigation tools, i grant your points about TBN except it takes no damage from raid-wide aoes and normally is meaningless bcs the aoe heals top you up with the rest of the party in a second with and without TBN and tend to mostly overcap you blood sometimes and you can't do anything against that making it a bigger dps lost sometimes as a cont, lets compared to the other 2.

-inner beast:
- mitigate a tank buster
- mitigate raid aoes
- mitigates 6 seconds of AA
- powerful self heal nullify with the mitigation and regen AA
- being used constantly
- cont, its behind defiance

-shelltron:
- around 30% mitigation block
- takes TB and aoes
- its just free as long as you have gaue, no extra managment around it.
- generate MP so its a dps gain and help to mitigate clemency flaws a bit.
- cont, can only be used against 1 hit but PLD have natural block.

of the 3 inner beast is the most powerfull but is locked behind defiance, deliverance answer is holmgang not complety comparable to TBN but you can't die and with convalescende its just to good for the recast it have, and roughly TBN and sheltron are the same with TBN ahead.

note im agree with your point against OP opinion about TBN but lets be clear TBN is not a special thing and every tank have something like that equally better more or less.

mitigation wise all 3 tanks do a good job and no tank require more heals that the others against TB.

I'm not saying DRK isn't in need of some changes, but it's not about performance and more about gameplay. Current DRK has a very good personal mitigation, and its DPS is slightly above PLD at every percentile. Performance-wise, DRK is pretty good. I just hope they won't make DRK's gameplay as sluggish as WAR and PLD, I love playing a fast paced tank.

technically is about performance too, DRK is the most healer dependent tank by a far margin not only for the lack of effective selfheals/pasive blocks outside of grit but being the worst tank to dealt with situations to carry the weight of you party at the cost of you dps to save the run since you can't archive the same self sustain on tank stance like the other 2 plus living dead its the most hated skill by the healers, the job is the least versatile and helpfull with the lack of any party support utility.

DRK is ok against the content and in ideal runs the job is equally to the other 2 a bit less that more but lets no ignore having a DRK means everything have to be ok bcs we can't make you life easier if something goes wrong like the other 2 and for progresion we are the worst choice by far, WAR/PLD its just to good for that.

all being said im agree with you, the fast paced gameplay is part of DRK identity and should remain no matter what but need a lot of more help that its looks.

[Megguido]

i don't consider it subjetive, DRK, WHM and MCH are the worst desingned jobs this expansion, clunkynes, lack of sinergy betwen you own skills, clipping problems all around or just useles gauge mechanics.

DRK cliping isues bcs dark arts animation is pretty long is a comong thing betwen high ping players and in less degree with low ping players too.

I was replying to Miyafuji, I should have quoted sorry. And clipping isn't a DRK issue, it's a Square Enix and shitty connections issue. If you can't play DRK without clipping, you can't play MCH, DRG, NIN, SMN, MNK, SAM without clipping.

technically is about performance too, DRK is the most healer dependent tank by a far margin not only for the lack of effective selfheals/pasive blocks outside of grit but being the worst tank to dealt with situations to carry the weight of you party at the cost of you dps to save the run since you can't archive the same self sustain on tank stance like the other 2 plus living dead its the most hated skill by the healers, the job is the least versatile and helpfull with the lack of any party support utility.

I just disagree with this. If we consider full DPS stance mode, WAR only has Storm's Path. At ilvl 385, Storm's Path heals for 2.2k HP every 3 GCD. In other words, it takes at least 18 GCD, which is around 40 seconds (without any Fell Cleave nor Storm's eye in the equation, so actually longer), to heal 14k HP as a WAR, which is what TBN can mitigate at a very minor cost. But that's not the main point. Main point is about Holmgang. Holmgang is OP, but requires heavy healing to recover akin to Living Dead, except it's more frequent. Surviving at half HP with DM + TBN is better than suviving with 1 HP, cause it's easier to recover. Unless you swap to tank stance and start IR - Inner Beast spam of course.

Living dead is a pain in the ass in dungeons mostly, and solo content, because you can't self heal to full HP in less than 10s and because a single unaware healer will have trouble to do so as well. Just put Living Dead healing requirement to 50% max HP, and turn TBN into a self heal instead of a shield during walking dead debuff or something like that and it's fixed.