Late to the BLU Party

[Mibgestalt]

First, I never said that Elemental skills where "gimmicky". The only thing even remotly close to that was when I took Aqua Breath, Goblin Punch and 1000 Needles as examples to say that these skills were not only direct neutral damage spells, but had a gimmick attached to them (Aqua Breath dealing more damage to Desert enemies, Goblin Punch taking enemies level into account, and 1000 Needles dealing fixed damage). The post was also answering to someone saying that BLU -for them- was all about nuke skills. It is a fact that 95% of the skills I listed are not nuke skills. I don't even know how you can argue against that.

Whatever the case, Elemental damage is -in the context of games with elemental resistances and weaknesses- situational, yes. Like it or not. Saying no would show a complete lack of knowledge as to what situational even means. You wouldn't use a Fire spell on Ifrit in most previous titles. And if you had the choice between two elemental skills, you'd choose the one that'd exploit the most the elemental weaknesses of the enemies. That's the very definition of situational skills: used in certain situations. And BLU's toolkit across a majority of previous FF titles was absolutly full of these skills. There's no possibility of denying that.

I mean I already did. By your definition, the definitive "nuke" class in all of Final Fantasy, Black Mage, has no nuke spells. You picked non-elemental spells as some metric of a "nuke", which is just flat out incorrect. Maybe your definition of nuke is just far off what the traditional definition is? A high damage spell. That's pretty much it. Been that way since DND in the 80s, and no one there said Fireball wasn't a nuke because it didn't work on fire elementals. I'm not really going to debate you on what a "nuke" means if the root of your claim is just a disconnect from common definitions. However, saying that 95% of Blue Mage skills is gimmicky or highly situational, to me and many others, is just a skewed claim being made to bolster your argument. I feel you'd be better off not even citing that number. You could make the exact same argument with the more accurate and honest "50% of spells in Blue Mage's kit aren't even damage spells, and it even goes up to 80% in a game like Final Fantasy Tactics: Advance".

Elemental spells in classic games are as "situational" as literally any attack in the game. Including basic auto attacks, there are enemies with high evade and or ridiculous defense where you're better off casting spells, so I guess literally everything is situational, which still makes your argument weak and bad. Also saying "You can't argue that" or "you can't deny that" is not a proper point in and of itself. For someone who fixates very heavily on intellectual debate terms like ad hominem, you'd think you'd be avoiding that sort of bizarre close-minded statement.

Removing BLU of its situational skills, and/or making everything deal non-elemental damage DOES hurt what Blue Magic is about. Just like what happened to Black Mage when they lost their elemental skills just to fit the 2.0 mold. Stripping a toolkit from its very purpose is an identity loss. I don't even know how you can question that.

I literally never questioned that, again, you accuse me of putting words in your mouth and then are doing the same thing to me. At this point we both may as well abandon the moral high ground.

Saying "what do you actually like in that job, since you are okay with throwing a lot of things away to make it fit the mold?" is definitly not the same as saying "you guys don't care about BLU!"
That's the very reason why I gave people a chance at describing what they do care about.[/B] You definitly got my intentions and the goal of my post completly wrong..

If people are fine with removing every aspect of BLU's toolkit, as long as they can play the job like any other, I'm sorry but yes, it does show that you don't really care about that toolkit I described above. That's not me disrespecting someone. That's me saying to others "your opinion looks like you don't care about what others might consider as important aspects of the job". [B]

And yes, I do understand that what I asked could be taken as an aggression, but when people show that they absolutly don't care about some aspects of the job that are key to its identity, and get entitled about the job as to say that "all battle jobs should be able to do exactly the same stuff!", I REALLY don't have to be kind when asking my question.

Do I need to explain the juxtaposition between what you're saying in the first quote and in the second? Claiming to be "just looking for answers" and "respectful of people's opinions", and then treat things like: "People who don't like the toolkit don't care as much", "People are entitled", "opinions don't carry as much weight", "people show they absolutly don't care about some aspects about the job that are key to it's identity" as inherent truths undermines the intentions you claim are so innocent.

Why do you think I was asking exactly that? I completly admitted that I had no idea what they actually liked about the job. That was the very reason of why I asked about it!

Because it did, and still does, come off as insincere when everything else you say undermines it and takes jabs at people who hold contrary opinions. Maybe you think tone and method of discussion is superfluous. When you ask, it seems it's because you've already made up your mind. If you really are just looking for answers you won't get the right ones by having discussions with an aggressive tone.

You put words in my mouth. You got me wrong. You accused me of being disrespectful. You accused me of giving false information. I refute absolutly everything you said in that regards.
You also didn't contribute anything to my point. You whole post was just a big ad hominem against me and the way I asked my question. I'm sorry but being apologetic while making a SECOND post with exactly the same claims feel absolutly dishonest and far from being sincere.

Dude, people's perception of your style of discussion as being aggressive and disrespectful is opinion, it can't really be wrong, regardless of what you claim your intentions to be. That's a failing on you as a communicator when you're in a public forum expressing your beliefs and claim to be looking for dialogue.

You keep saying ad hominem, but I've always been focusing on the way you frame your argument, not you. Even still, your position is "I don't think you can like Blue Mage that much unless you like it in the way I think is acceptable, prove me wrong", which is hardly a position meriting factual debate because it's entirely subjective. I've never once said anything bad about your character, and if you took it that way, I apologized. I didn't apologize for how disrespectful your approach is. You claim you are asking for opinions and for a point to be made that is completely based in feelings, but then try and disprove them like facts because you can't or don't want to understand them. You don't come off as wanting a discussion. You come off as wanting to prove how your opinion is right, when it can never be because it's an opinion on a wholly subjective matter.

I didn't contribute anything to your point because no one has to defend their love of the class or appreciation for its different facets to you. It was arrogant question to even ask.

I REALLY don't have to be kind when asking my question.

Then you shouldn't be surprised when you don't get kindness and civility in response.

[Anyan]

This has probably been answered somewhere already so I'm sorry for asking again but there are so many posts spread between several threads and pages. Does anyone know what the Japanese player base thinks about this version?

[Lastelli]

This has probably been answered somewhere already so I'm sorry for asking again but there are so many posts spread between several threads and pages. Does anyone know what the Japanese player base thinks about this version?

Discussions on the jp forum are similar to those we have here, but much more well mannered and indirect of course. Some people are cautiously optimistic, others are mildly worried.

[PatronasCharm]

SE making BLU as their first "Limited" Job is a good risk as it's a popular job, not sure if it's as popular and wanted as DNC, but regardless, it's a good risk. I'm sure SE has a plan too, if it flops. There's plenty of great ideas roaming about the forums of ways it could potentially be kept as is, but still be able to not be "Limited." I for one am excited as it's been a job I've been wanting to play for a good while; just like them introducing RDM for Stormblood brought me, a customer and now vested subscriber, on-board with FFXIV and I even bought the expansions JUST to play RDM, even if it wasn't completely the way I pictured it.

Blue Mage will do so too; and since it wont even require any of the Expansions to play its content, it might bring potential customers to stroll on in and maybe be part of our community.

So I for one am on-board, because even if it fails in the eyes of the hardcore, it will bring new people into the community and in hopes, perhaps snag them by a hook, and reel them in for what's to come in Shadowbringers.

And come on! It's Blue Mage! Let's see where SE goes with it

[jon041065]

SE making BLU as their first "Limited" Job is a good risk as it's a popular job, not sure if it's as popular and wanted as DNC, but regardless, it's a good risk. I'm sure SE has a plan too, if it flops. There's plenty of great ideas roaming about the forums of ways it could potentially be kept as is, but still be able to not be "Limited." I for one am excited as it's been a job I've been wanting to play for a good while; just like them introducing RDM for Stormblood brought me, a customer and now vested subscriber, on-board with FFXIV and I even bought the expansions JUST to play RDM, even if it wasn't completely the way I pictured it.

Blue Mage will do so too; and since it wont even require any of the Expansions to play its content, it might bring potential customers to stroll on in and maybe be part of our community.

So I for one am on-board, because even if it fails in the eyes of the hardcore, it will bring new people into the community and in hopes, perhaps snag them by a hook, and reel them in for what's to come in Shadowbringers.

And come on! It's Blue Mage! Let's see where SE goes with it

It is not a good risk at all unless they have a backup plan for it as you said but then why haven't they released a statement to say that yet? If they had used onion knigh/freelancer/unique XIV job to test content like this there would be much more positive feedback.

Here's a post where someone explained why people on our side are worried about the future of the game.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...72#post4831672

We see it as either blue mage was wasted on content that will fail or SE is starting down a path that could ruin the game if they keep going down it. This isn't speculation as a lot of us have seen WoW go down the path of too much splitting of content.

Blue mage will bring in some new players and entice some to return but it will have the opposite effect to others. It could have been a major selling point IF it was a full job with fun side content.

"And come on! It's Blue Mage! Let's see where SE goes with it "
No thanks. It's a blue mage mini game. Not really a blue mage combat job.

[Burningskull]

Easiest way to make Blue Mage work in this game is to just make it job quest centric. Ex.

You go to your trainer, he says go learn X skill by fighting X mobs. Let's say cactuars. You go out into the world, fight the cactuars in the open world till you learn the spell. This way you don't have 49+ abilities that you have to balance and worry about which ones a Blue Mage has or doesn't have and the Blue Mage has about as many abilities as the regular jobs. Add some gimmick where one spell combos into another spell like for example 1,000 needles > 10,000 needles, etc. etc. Or some other gimmick like if you use one spell followed by another spell the party gets a buff or the mob gets a debuff or what have you.

Just a thought but take a book out of Ninja's book in FFXI. Let's say you use Aqua Breath. The mob now has a debuff called Soaked. If you use Thunder Breath or Lightning Breath, w/e it's called, it'll do more damage cause you used Aqua Breath first.

[jon041065]

Easiest way to make Blue Mage work in this game is to just make it job quest centric. Ex.

You go to your trainer, he says go learn X skill by fighting X mobs. Let's say cactuars. You go out into the world, fight the cactuars in the open world till you learn the spell. This way you don't have 49+ abilities that you have to balance and worry about which ones a Blue Mage has or doesn't have and the Blue Mage has about as many abilities as the regular jobs. Add some gimmick where one spell combos into another spell like for example 1,000 needles > 10,000 needles, etc. etc. Or some other gimmick like if you use one spell followed by another spell the party gets a buff or the mob gets a debuff or what have you.

Just a thought but take a book out of Ninja's book in FFXI. Let's say you use Aqua Breath. The mob now has a debuff called Soaked. If you use Thunder Breath or Lightning Breath, w/e it's called, it'll do more damage cause you used Aqua Breath first.

This is pretty much what I thought it was going to be like. You have a spell hunting log for 6-10 that you have to go kill X many of each mob to learn their spells then bring the completed log to pick up the level 10 quest. Finish that quest to get a passive to learn higher level spells and the next page in the log. The learning method wasn't that important to me so I'm fine with what they went with but then for the devs to use that as an excuse to limited blue mage is absurd.

[KokoChibata]

So I get the OP is a lil... salty about the whole "limited job" thing but there are a few good reasons for why its being done this way. First off we are getting 49 spells and a level cap of 50 TO START WITH. These will be increased with patches we will be able to learn more skills and go beyond level 50. This was done most likely to get it released on schedual. Creating skills animations etc takes time so to offset this the job is releaseing at lvl 50 with 49 spells at 4.5 this works out to one spell shy of one spell per level. Second the only real content BLU is barred from is pvp they can still run dungeons trials and raids as long as its for the lvl cap they have and again the level cap as well as how many spells we can aquire will increase with patches. While they cant run PoTD or roulettes they will be given more exp per mob then any other job to help them level. This does a couple things it makes leves viable for leveling and it makes fates even better for leveling. Spells are also going to be "rarely" learned. They are taking a page from FFXI on this one as its the same way BLU got spells on there. This way of aquireing spells brings about the Blue Magic Learning Party. A party or alliance of all BLU go out and farm spells. If you want to run a dungeon there is nothing stopping you grab yer friends and que up keep in mind it cant be a roulette but its better then not being able to run any at all. The same goes for trials and raids. Another point is we arent getting watered down versions of the monster skills we are getting the full force abilities. Some of these abilities would be a tad over powered for regular content. And well thats part of the fun really I prefer having OP skills rather then watered down versions thats the road FFXI took and ya BLU was fun but it felt like every other job on 11. Chances are most of the restrictions will be removed eventually just give it time.

[jon041065]

So I get the OP is a lil... salty about the whole "limited job" thing but there are a few good reasons for why its being done this way. First off we are getting 49 spells and a level cap of 50 TO START WITH. These will be increased with patches we will be able to learn more skills and go beyond level 50. This was done most likely to get it released on schedual. Creating skills animations etc takes time so to offset this the job is releaseing at lvl 50 with 49 spells at 4.5 this works out to one spell shy of one spell per level.

Barely anyone is complaining about this.

Second the only real content BLU is barred from is pvp they can still run dungeons trials and raids as long as its for the lvl cap they have and again the level cap as well as how many spells we can aquire will increase with patches. While they cant run PoTD or roulettes they will be given more exp per mob then any other job to help them level. This does a couple things it makes leves viable for leveling and it makes fates even better for leveling.

Can't do Palace of the Dead or current content including MSQ. Also, we don't know how much bonus exp open world kills will get you so it's too early to say it makes up for PotD not being an option.

Spells are also going to be "rarely" learned. They are taking a page from FFXI on this one as its the same way BLU got spells on there. This way of aquireing spells brings about the Blue Magic Learning Party. A party or alliance of all BLU go out and farm spells.

The only spell I remember actually making a party or an alliance for was Body Slam from the dragons on the west side of Mount Zhayolm. Most spells were learned solo or just while you were exp grinding. Do others that played blu on XI not remember your party members telling you "grats!" when you said you learned a spell like off the bats in Garlaige Citadel? Why can't that happen on 14 as well while running a dungeon with random people?

If you want to run a dungeon there is nothing stopping you grab yer friends and que up keep in mind it cant be a roulette but its better then not being able to run any at all. The same goes for trials and raids.

Yeah it's better than not being able to run anything but what about people to play late at night/early in the morning or have severe social anxiety and have to depend on matchmaking? Also, good luck getting 23 other people to make full party finder groups after February.

Another point is we arent getting watered down versions of the monster skills we are getting the full force abilities. Some of these abilities would be a tad over powered for regular content. And well thats part of the fun really I prefer having OP skills rather then watered down versions thats the road FFXI took and ya BLU was fun but it felt like every other job on 11. Chances are most of the restrictions will be removed eventually just give it time.

Instead we are getting a highly requested job as a mini-game. It's fine if you want the OP stuff to go solo with but others like myself want a balanced version of blue mage to do the content that interests us. Why can't we ask for that? You say the restrictions will probably be removed but that will only happen if the player base changes their mind. They didn't state that this was a test phase and were pretty clear on their design choices.