[Discussion] A lore forum Discord chat channel!

[Alleluia]

I'm sorry but I have to interject here. One, there is no reason to go after Iscah that way because what they say are VERY valid concerns here on the forums (not just the lore ones) as a whole! Secondly, you asking for someone who "dings" for behavior and not their ideals is the exact opposite of what would happen if Theo or the other one were to have ANY kind of control over said Discord.

There is only one MAYBE two people I could see being COMPLETELY unbiased on this forum that would actually uphold unbias in such an intimate setting. One obviously being Anonymoose.

I'm more of a lurker on the lore forums then I am a poster because usually most beat me to the punch on questions or discussions I would like to have so I just usually observe. And even though I have the two on my ignore list it doesn't block it when people quote people on your block list either, so it's another reason I don't prefer to post here on these lore forums either.

I understand exactly where those who voice their concerns are coming from in this sort of topic period, much less who has incited it is triggering their anxiety. Because it's very much doing that to me as well. And I mean true anxiety that I've been diagnosed with not just a hot button word people use when they are just feeling anxious.

As far as the topic at hand is concerned, no I don't think a VOIP/outside chat source would be best, at least for the forums sake. We already have places like reddit where if you wish to go there instead of here people will voice their ideas and opinion on the games lore and story.

Ok, so first, I wasn't going after Iscah. I was quoting Iscah and responding to the quote. if someone else had typed the paragraph I'd have quoted them instead. Iscah made a point and I responded to it. That's not an attack. I don't even honestly know who Iscah is and didn't realize I'd quoted them specifically till you said this. My eyes tend to skip over forum names unless I feel a need to focus on it. I just read the posts.

Secondly, who cares what a mods opinions are, biased or not? Its about whether they act on them against others. Only opinion of a mod that matters is their opinion on free speech and what speech is uncivil and punishable. If he's not going to be a dictator (and so far he seems to be trying to actively avoid letting any mod be a dictator via the mod panel model he's proposing) then in theory he can be a moderator. If he loves Garlemald and you hate it, who cares? I don't see him proposing making "hating garlemald" a kickable offense. Plenty of people have disagreed with him here on things and he doesn't seem to get personal about it. Garlean fanboyism aside, guy seems alright enough to me, and I stand by that opinion.

[Theodric]

I don't think anybody is going after Iscah. To be blunt, popping into a thread and claiming to have anxiety is...more than a little emotionally manipulative. It may very well not be intentional, though I'd be lying if I said it didn't rub me the wrong way. As someone who has been diagnosed with PTSD, I wouldn't dare try to 'weaponise' it to sway opinions or make people feel guilty. Especially in something as largely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things as an online forum.

To be blunt, if people are so delicate that differences in opinion on an internet forum give them anxiety then that may be a good sign to seek professional aid to help work through the aforementioned issues. There's no shame in that. I'm not saying that to be spiteful. I'm saying it because I know full well how horrible and irrational anxiety can be. At the same time, it isn't really anybody's responsibility here to 'baby' each other to avoid offense. Many of us are from completely different countries and cultures. In some cases, there's a language barrier. Some people are blunter than others. So long as everybody abides by the terms of service, however, everything else is...largely irrelevant.

As I said, I'm more than welcome to be transparent about any decisions I undertake in regards to moderation and would, ideally, be working as a part of a team to ensure there's thorough discussion.

I don't particularly care about popularity contests. I'm not going to get along with everybody - but neither is anyone else, for that matter.

I think some of you need to take a step back and think deeply on your concerns. I post on multiple forums without issue. Here's a link to two of my profiles, feel free to have a look through my post history:

https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/profile/1500-ryuji/

https://www.mmo-champion.com/members/1096882-Graeham

There's nothing particularly controversial or insulting to be found there, I assure you - I like to think that I post in a respectful enough manner.

I don't particularly care if some of you don't like Garlemald. I've never claimed otherwise. I'll argue in defence of the characters I like, especially if they're subjected to be written off as 'evil' and little else, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. All I'll ever do is continue to offer to talk things out and agree to disagree. Which is fair. If you feel otherwise, feel free to elaborate - but I'll confess to missing what the issue is here, other than perhaps some posters wanting to 'win' an argument.

So let's be clear. What, exactly, are the issues in regards to 'bias' and how can we work through them?

Again, I urge everybody to take a look through my post history elsewhere to get a feel in regards to how I choose to present myself online. I post frequently because I enjoy posting, especially when it comes to subjects that interest me. I really don't care if people disagree with me, so long as they're civil about it. I'd like to think that has been consistent.

In the interest of clarity, I've been snippy myself here at times - but only as a consequence of people making horrific accusations about me supporting genocide because they believe that supporting specific fictional characters equates to supporting similar atrocities in the real world.

(Hint: It doesn't.)

This is a little longer than I expected this post to be, but again...it's a matter of clarity. I want to make it clear that I'm putting forward this project in good faith.

TLDR: There doesn't need to be any bad blood unless people go out of their way to deliberately cause it. Furthermore, I'm not presenting myself as the sole moderator - I'm just the guy taking initiative to get it up and running. I really want a place to discuss the game's lore that is easier to access on the go yet isn't just a side channel in a much larger Discord server.

[ObsidianFire]

I'm just the guy taking initiative to get it up and running. I really want a place to discuss the game's lore that is easier to access on the go yet isn't just a side channel in a much larger Discord server.

This is the part that you're going to have to convince some of us we want. Some of us are pretty okay with just discussing lore in a side channel of a larger Discord. You get different people who have different takes on lore that way.

[Anonymoose]

Moderators should generally be following a rule of law, so I agree in a "panel" of sorts, but ideally you shouldn't be able to tell one mod from another, anyway. How often can you tell which GM someone got by how their claim was processed? Though frankly I'm tickled people would still encourage me to mod even though I said I wouldn't give a generous amount of chances for bad-faith abrasiveness. Usually I just get, "Grow some thicker skin, cu*kflake." Though arguably that sentiment has been lightly touched upon here, lol.

Furthermore, I'm not presenting myself as the sole moderator - I'm just the guy taking initiative to get it up and running. I really want a place to discuss the game's lore that is easier to access on the go yet isn't just a side channel in a much larger Discord server.

To a degree, I can understand the accusation that you seem very invested in automatically being some degree of showrunner; it was brought up a few times that such a server is already set up and sits unused, but in spite of this you set up one you could hold administrator rights for - one might see it as initiative, another might see it as bias. Having a debate over which it really is would be ideally avoided, though; that's just - like - negativity on the tarmac.

You're free to create one with a moderator panel better suited to your tastes, then.

"Yeah, well ... I'm gonna make my own server! With Triad and harlots!"

[Theodric]

This is the part that you're going to have to convince some of us we want. Some of us are pretty okay with just discussing lore in a side channel of a larger Discord. You get different people who have different takes on lore that way.

If you prefer to stick to a side channel in a larger Discord, then that's fine. This is more intended for those of us who want something a little more focused and less prone to the hostility/excessive fawning that can be found in some of the larger Discord channels.

It's also pretty fun to get to know people who share a fondness for the same hobby a little better. That can't really be done here to a significant degree without risking getting into trouble for going off topic.

To a degree, I can understand the accusation that you seem very invested in automatically being some degree of showrunner; it was brought up a few times that such a server is already set up and sits unused, but in spite of this you set up one you could hold administrator rights for - one might see it as initiative, another might see it as bias. Having a debate over which it really is would be ideally avoided, though; that's just - like - negativity on the tarmac.

Presumably there's a way to ensure that all moderators are on equal footing, perhaps by sharing in administration privileges. I'll confess to wanting to be involved in this project, the degree at which is largely up for debate - but as I said earlier, a lot of people who play FFXIV are prone to flakiness and so I figured I'd take initiative to help get the ball rolling as soon as possible.

In regards to my earlier post, what are your thoughts on my posting on other sites? I really want people to weigh in on that, because so far most of the disagreement stems from accusations of alleged bias - but I've always strove to be civil and to talk things out if problems arise. If I've ever been snippy, it's been after multiple accusations of supporting genocide or some such, which I'd like to think is understandable - and it's never resulted in a breach of the terms of service, so I've never been banned.

Ultimately I feel a moderation panel is for the best. We need to establish some ground rules but we also don't want to just put people in a position of power based solely on popularity. We need some 'grit' - someone who is willing to show tough love if needed, but is tempered by the influence of other moderators on the panel.

So far, most of the concerns raised seem to be in regards to 'bias'. Yet, again, if people take a look through my post history on other sites they should easily be able to see that my 'agree to disagree' approach is consistent.

If people don't like me, specifically, as a person then...that's on them. This is a board that attracted posters from the world over. A lot of us come from completely different cultures and backgrounds. Some speak English as a primary language. Others do not. It just makes sense for 'agree to disagree' to be the default stance. I can't force people to abide by that, of course, though I will stubbornly advocate for it to be embraced.

[Fenral]

Don't look at me. I would've already issued three warnings and a ban, just off of this thread.

[Alleo]

Since you have asked for this I have gone through a bit of history to quote some posts. Normally I dont do it but I believe that some of those might show the problem people have. They are not the full quotes because of space, but of course can be read in the thread. (I am also not stating with this that the other posters or me or anyone was innocent in it or not a bit too snarky or anything, just showing some hints on what the problem might be, and of course this is only a small amount of years of posting)

[...]

It's also very unfortunate to see posts pushing blatant headcanon so heavily upvoted within this thread. Though I suppose that only serves to cement my belief that a handful of the regulars here aren't interested in the canon lore so much as their own personal interpretation of it. Surprisingly, I see more in-depth and nuanced discussions surrounding lore on the FF14 Reddit and general discussion sub-forum these days.

I've also repeatedly expressed a willingness to agree to disagree - so please stop trying to paint me as unreasonable. Thankfully I've identified the issue as specific to this particular sub-forum - because I have no problem engaging in thorough debates regarding the game's lore on the FF14 sub-reddit, the official site's general discussion board, the FF14 gamefaq's board and - surprisingly - even Youtube comment sections. More often than not, many debates here are doomed to fail simply because it's the same handful of posters discussing points they've brought up countless times already.

So either we agree to disagree or we continue in an endless cycle that is quite clearly ticking a lot of people off and pushing them away.

So, none of you are actually willing to agree to disagree and simply expect those with different interpretations of the lore to conform to a biased narrative. Which is precisely what I've been saying for quite some time, so I'm glad we've finally got it in writing once and for all.

Like I said, though, there's other places to discuss the game's lore that serve as much less of a biased echo chamber consisting of the same handful of individuals regurgitating the same points day in, day out. I'd strongly urge those interested to consider posting on lore threads on the FF14 sub-reddit - they're typically much more nuanced and engaging.

These are just some quotes of the Warrior of Light mindless killer thread.

One never needs to look far to see examples of Eorzea's not so perfect behaviour. I suspect a large part of the issue is that many come here not to discuss the lore as a whole, but to gush over Eorzea and Eorzeans at every turn.

From the coming garlean invasion.

Seemingly in discussions about certain topics you have more than once stated that you see quite a few of the regular posters here as an echo chamber and pointed out that others should go to other sites if they want better and nuanced discussions. I am not sure if people like something like that especially when the threads that these are from have some regular posters but also others that have seemingly in their opinion also have believed in the way that the regular ones see it. Thats why probably quite some of those that do regularly post about lore might not see you as unbiased. And there is imo nothing wrong with being biased as long as the discussion is civil and as long as the person has no power over others.

I have nothing against you, I dont blacklist people and I read quite a few great posts from you, but I also have read quite some snarky, or passive aggressive posts here or on the normal forum too. (Again I am not saying that others dont do that too, I am just pointing out why this might not make you as a unbiased mod)

About the anxiety part: I think its more about people stating that they are already suffering from that and simply dont want to further go into a situation that might increase that or might make them uncomfortable. (Especially about something like a game opinion) Its not about manipulating, just saying their opinion. And I am also quite sure that some if not all are in therapy thus no need for such an hint. Nobody needs to be baby anyone if they post in a normal way about a topic without being indirectly insulting or telling someone that they are a bad fan if they dislike it. And some have stated that they simply feel like they cant discuss certain topics there thus would feel like they need to watch their word and that would just be bad.

Thats why I also stated that its probably not a good idea to have anyone from any side as a mod because we are all biased in some way. On reddit at least one gets the feeling that regular posters are not mods too, and on this forum you have the split between the posters like us and the mods that decide to delete posts or punish people. I am not sure if they could be as objective if they would discuss it all with us too.

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But again this is just the part with the mods, other reasons have been used too and seemingly even Anonymoose got their lore discord barely filled if I interpret it correctly? The idea itself is not bad but maybe there is simply no interest in it, especially if people are already splitted over enough forums to post their opinions and maybe dont want another one. But again just my view on this. If it getting active then thats great for all of those that wanted one, I just hope that this dont kill it here too badly.

[ObsidianFire]

If you prefer to stick to a side channel in a larger Discord, then that's fine. This is more intended for those of us who want something a little more focused and less prone to the hostility/excessive fawning that can be found in some of the larger Discord channels.

It's also pretty fun to get to know people who share a fondness for the same hobby a little better. That can't really be done here to a significant degree without risking getting into trouble for going off topic.

I'm confused. On the one hand, we want the freedom to go off-topic and yet on the other we want something more focused on lore then the larger discord channels. That... seems a bit at cross purposes...

I've had some experience with this kind of thing on another fan forum. What inevitably ended up happening was that no one ever really discussed the game the forum was about in the Discord channel and just discussed personal stuff. Meanwhile, any serious discussion about the game happened in the forum because that's what that medium was better for. Long-posts work far better on a forum then they ever will in Discord. And Lore tends towards long-posts a lot of the time.

I'm just wondering if that's the vibe people are getting from this (I know I am) and are thinking that no, they really don't want to help be mods of a channel that doesn't end up having to do a lot with what brought everyone together. They'd rather discuss lore... on a forum... that already just so happens to exist.

[Theodric]

I may be a bit blunt at times, though I don't feel like any of those quoted posts are particularly damning. Different people have different tastes and it's definitely tiresome to be fond of the likes of Regula only to see their contributions to the story consistently downplayed or misinterpreted. As I've said, I've never had any major issues on any of the other sites I post on. I really don't care if people don't like Garlemald and I've only been 'snippy' when other posters have attempted to paint me as supporting genocide in the real world because I happen to like Garlemald and characters related to it.

...but it's largely irrelevant. Nobody is going to be banned based on disagreements related to the lore unless they resort to outright personal attacks that go beyond the occasional bit of hyperbole or sarcasm. I've never resorted to any myself. I don't sugar coat things, but I don't go out of my way to cause trouble either. If people can't bring themselves to talk things out or agree to disagree then...that's on them, really.

To go back to anxiety, though...

Most of us have issues to deal with on a daily basis on the real world. Not all of us feel the need to bring them up here, though. I could write at length the tough things I've had to deal with this week but I won't - because it's not really relevant to you guys and it'd just be an attempt to garner sympathy. It'd also make things pretty awkward.

Again, I have sympathy for people who suffer from anxiety...but in the grand scheme of things, debates about a fictional setting are very minuscule.

I'm confused. On the one hand, we want the freedom to go off-topic and yet on the other we want something more focused on lore then the larger discord channels. That... seems a bit at cross purposes...

I've had some experience with this kind of thing on another fan forum. What inevitably ended up happening was that no one ever really discussed the game the forum was about in the Discord channel and just discussed personal stuff. Meanwhile, any serious discussion about the game happened in the forum because that's what that medium was better for. Long-posts work far better on a forum then they ever will in Discord. And Lore tends towards long-posts a lot of the time.

I'm just wondering if that's the vibe people are getting from this (I know I am) and are thinking that no, they really don't want to help be mods of a channel that doesn't end up having to do a lot with what brought everyone together. They'd rather discuss lore... on a forum... that already just so happens to exist.

What's there to be confused about?

The channel will have an off-topic channel for people to discuss off-topic subjects and get to know each other. It'll also have two channels to discuss the game's lore. One devoted to spoiler territory when a patch first goes live and another to discuss anything and everything else related to the established lore.

The side channels in larger Discord channels do not operate in such a fashion. Almost every time I look at the FFXIV Reddit Discord, for instance, the chat is full of off topic discussion in the lore channel, fawning over specific users, excessive swearing and more than once I've seen hurtful commentary aimed at other users. Moderation is very light and I believe the Discord channel as a whole was punished in the past due to inappropriate content being posted there.

Again, this forum doesn't have a PM function. Many posters also play on completely different servers, further complicating things. A Discord channel makes it much easier to simply engage those present and let conversation evolve naturally in a way it cannot here.

[Alleo]

Oh of course the single posts are not damning (I had worst from other posters) but I wanted to quote them just to show why maybe a few people here (which seemingly are also quite a few that post often) might not like the mod idea. Nobody likes to be called an echo chamber or the hint that maybe people should not stick around here because we just like to gush about Eorzea and then suddenly its all about an discord together and to learn more about each other. And some might just not like the "agree to disagree" angle because its sometimes just used when someone has no argument anymore but instead of just dropping out of the discussion they want it to be finished.

The idea itself is not bad but seemingly not many are for it? Its a bit hard to tell on such a low scale.

Maybe we should have a few post where people can throw a like towards and show what they want? This way we could get a better feeling on what people want. Maybe split it between discord with certain mods, discord without any plans for who is a mod, no to discord and maybe a I dont care either way. (Just an idea)