[Discussion] A lore forum Discord chat channel!

[Theodric]

I proposed a moderator panel because I felt like it's the best compromise for all involved. A moderation panel based on people elected based solely on their popularity wouldn't work out well, I believe.

For what it's worth, I'd be perfectly fine granting Anonymoose administration privileges in the channel should he wish to be a moderator himself. I'd be more than happy to take a step back once everything is up and running. I simply want to ensure that the project gets up off of the ground in the first place and for that to happen there needs to be someone passionate and stubborn at the helm.

Otherwise it just risks fading into obscurity.

There's a bunch of potential things I could do to encourage participation both here and in the channel itself. I'm toying with the idea of a bi-monthly lottery for Mog Station items, for instance. Something I'd be happy to fund with my own wallet.

Ultimately, though, it's just a Discord channel. Hardly something that needs to be a major controversy unless people deliberately go out of their way to make it into one. It might work out. It might not.

[Cilia]

Not interested.

If you think my sarcasm is bad here, in real life I take it up to 11 and swear casually. I wouldn't last a day.

... assuming I ever bothered to say anything; if we're going to make our neruoses known then I'm schizoid. Simply put, I'm more or less a recluse outside of this forum and have no desire to be anything more. I must also echo the sentiment that the slower pace and ability to articulate thoughts without interruption is invaluable (I'm often told that I'm smart, but my wit is not the quickest).

All the same, I wish you the best of luck in the endeavor.

[Sounsyy]

Personally, I'm not a fan of Discord as a great medium for actual dissemination of lore knowledge.
Discussion, sure, if you can keep up. But I'm in enough active lore channels to know I (personally) can't keep up with the tide of people making short sentence, meme replies to new people with legitimate lore questions, and those few lore people who do take the time to actually answer them get lost pretty quickly in the flood of replies (some incorrect entirely) before someone asks a new but related question that moves the topic forward.

Theodoric's Lore Discord would also require a very active moderation team to keep up with pins, because if you don't pin an actually useful post fairly quickly it can get lost in the scroll. Which begs the question: Who is this Discord intended for, exactly? People with an interest in the lore, yes, but is this focused more towards people who consider themselves lore knowledgeable to discuss theories amongst themselves? Or is it aimed more towards people who aren't so knowledgeable to join and field questions? I assume both, but I wonder then the plan to make a discord for both loremongers but also people coming in who want to join in discussion (or just watch) seem both niche but also inclusive for the stray question asker.

Using Discord as a lore resource is just not very viable in my experience. Perhaps if your discord offered more specific channels, this might be alleviated somewhat. A channel for questions about lore, a channel for lore discussion, a channel for spoilers, a channel for lore links, maybe even dedicated channels for topics specific to certain regions, etc. However, I still maintain forums and individual threads work better for that sort of thing over a long time. And if the only Pros for this discord so far are posting screenshots/images and being able to PM specific members (about what though i'm unsure?) versus the cons that people have listed so far, I think I'll keep to my own lore corner for now.

[Alleluia]

Can't we just have the link posted and people enter and check it out? Honestly all this back and forth is kinda pointless, imo. Just open the channel, everyone generally agree to try not to be jerks, and whoever has kick power, don't kick anyone over disagreements over lore, only personal abuse. Whether or not its going to work will entirely depend on how it shakes out once we're actually in there and talking to one another. Those who want in can go in, those who don't can not go in, and life on the Lore Forum continues regardless.

It's just a chatroom. We're doing waaaay too much thinking, talking, hemming and hawwing about this when its really just a matter of doing it or not and seeing how it goes. Theodoric, if you are up for hosting it, please post the link.

[Theodric]

Can't we just have the link posted and people enter and check it out? Honestly all this back and forth is kinda pointless, imo. Just open the channel, everyone generally agree to try not to be jerks, and whoever has kick power, don't kick anyone over disagreements over lore, only personal abuse. Whether or not its going to work will entirely depend on how it shakes out once we're actually in there and talking to one another. Those who want in can go in, those who don't can not go in, and life on the Lore Forum continues regardless.

It's just a chatroom. We're doing waaaay too much thinking, talking, hemming and hawwing about this when its really just a matter of doing it or not and seeing how it goes. Theodoric, if you are up for hosting it, please post the link.

I'll post the link, then! For what it's worth, I actually prefer posting on forums where possible for the most part. I just like the convenience and 'quick access' that comes with Discord.

As far as I see it, this place can be used for more in-depth discussions and debates...whereas the Discord channel can serve the purpose of something a bit 'lighter'. Sometimes I'm all for a deep and meaningful debate, other times I just want to gush about something in the lore I find cool without every little bit being dissected.

The former scenario is better for this board, the latter is usually better over Discord.

So, here's the link:

https://discord.gg/8Ua6uD

Even if it only leads to me meeting one or two people to chat with, I'll consider it a success. I post a lot on a hiking forum, that had a Discord chat made to network and although not everybody joined it led to some fun chatter and friendships that might not have been formed if everything had been limited to the forum itself. So, who knows? Maybe I'm being overly idealistic here, I don't really know yet.

But, yeah...some people will join, others won't. There's no pressure, but I figure at this point I might as well go ahead and see who, if anyone wants to join. Especially since there's lurkers/people who can't physically post to consider.

[reiichi]

In my opinion, a discord makes for an absolutely horrid place for any sort of non-ephemeral data. The search/history function is pretty limited, and there can only be up to 50 items pinned in any given channel. (Which yes, seems like a lot, until every new untrackable discussion is now pinned so people can try to track one down.)

As others have said, there are places for people interested in the lore to hang out and chat/discuss something. Chatting is what Discord is GOOD at. But what happens when users try to move their permament content to a discord? You get a tangled mess of pins unless some poor soul decides to be a scribe and copy any meaningful content elsewhere. And in a faster-paced setting where "several people are typing" is a common sight, that turns into a lot of work while sifting out seemingly useless meme replies or nonanswers.

So on that end, make a lore discussion discord. But don't expect it to be anymore more than a discord. If it's just to replace a private messages feature or a shoutbox, there are probably plenty of already-populated servers for just that.

On moderation, there are a few issues.
1. Fast-paced moderation sucks. It's never fast enough (outside of clunky bots who can't recognize context).
2. Nobody will ever agree upon a consistent group of "good" moderators in any setting.
3. People generally seen as popular or respected usually aren't the people who:
3a. Have the time to be a mod.
3b. Want to be a mod.
3c. Should even be a mod.

Which then leads us back to 1. I believe Theodric has plenty of experience in that regard if we just use the RPC as an example. (And how many staff members has that poor site gone through, whether deemed good, bad, or just there?)

Discord does a lot of things right. Let it handle what it's good at.

Let the forums do what they are good at. Here, we even get developer responses too!

[Alleluia]

So on that end, make a lore discussion discord. But don't expect it to be anymore more than a discord. If it's just to replace a private messages feature or a shoutbox, there are probably plenty of already-populated servers for just that.

I thought that's exactly what the proposed discord would be? Are people under the assumption that this is some attempt to replace the Lore Forum? Cus its not. It can't do that. Its an attempt to add a peripheral that allows real time interaction between the frequenters of the Lore Forum, if they so choose to participate in it. That's all this proposal is.

[AmemeAmeklin]

I prefer forums for the reason that if someone were to do a google search about a lore question they have, the SE official site comes up and since actual staff members post here with accurate info, it's one of the better resources outside the encyclopaedias.

Forums and discussion boards have always been a wonderful archival resource for both info on game lore and player opinions. Having been around for the great EZBoards hack of the 2000s, where hundreds of thousands of topics on all manner of subjects were lost, and the later loss of old EZBoards when Yuku decided to eat everything, I believe placing that kind of discussion into a tiny hideaway like a discord server would do the community a great disservice in the long run.

[Theodric]

The original post has been updated to better reflect things. I'll do my best to keep it up to date as things evolve. Feel free to check it out! Everyone's welcome, so long as they abide by the established rule.

Again, this isn't intended to 'replace' this board. It's just a side dish alongside the main course. Something intended to coexist rather than compete.

[Iscah]

I don't think anybody is going after Iscah. To be blunt, popping into a thread and claiming to have anxiety is...more than a little emotionally manipulative. It may very well not be intentional, though I'd be lying if I said it didn't rub me the wrong way. As someone who has been diagnosed with PTSD, I wouldn't dare try to 'weaponise' it to sway opinions or make people feel guilty.

So please don't assume I'm only saying it to be "emotionally manipulative"!

I am not "claiming to have anxiety". I have anxiety, and a diagnosis to prove it. I was sitting there with a massive knot in my stomach, and wanted people to know that. As I am again now.

Oh, and nervous heartbeat too now. How fun.

This is one of my main Internet places to visit at the moment. The thought of some of that discussion shifting to a different place, and from "neutral ground" to one moderated by people with an opinion in the discussion instead of uninvested forum moderators... and not even waiting to get the proposed "balanced team" before starting it up.

As others have suggested, the way it's being handled has tipped me from "on the fence" to "no I don't want to be there".

Anxiety of being there. Anxiety of missing out. Anxiety of having yet another chat channel to try to keep up with all the discussion in a far more urgent and missable format than a forum where the topics, and their 'unread post' icons, will still be there and easily found or replied to tomorrow.

(I left the "Nervous Eorzean" Discord some time ago because I couldn't keep up with the conversation. How's that for irony...?)

Again, I urge everybody to take a look through my post history elsewhere to get a feel in regards to how I choose to present myself online. I post frequently because I enjoy posting, especially when it comes to subjects that interest me. I really don't care if people disagree with me, so long as they're civil about it. I'd like to think that has been consistent.

I've read through (and attempted to debate) enough of your post history here, I don't need to go out and read what you write on other forums.

And it's not about your views on Garlemald or any particular character that I have issues with, it's the way you debate them. As with the quotes Alleo pulled out, where you speak down to other posters for being "not nuanced enough" or "only interested in their personal interpretation of the lore" (like you don't have one that you insist on?) or an "echo chamber". And now instead of being just part of the discussion that you talk about so dismissively, you say that you'd be the perfect person to moderate it.

Can you see why that sounds like a bad idea, if you "objectively" step back from it being your opinion and think about the sort of person who should be moderating a debate?


I also feel like it's not just about opinions, but the way you interpret the canon itself - which rightly or wrongly is sometimes out of line with what the majority would agree to be "the facts" within the story.

An argument that continues to stick in mind is this one where you see "Eorzea's imperialistic tendencies" where everyone else (at least everyone who weighed in on the conversation) sees the actions of private individuals.

And again, as much as the argument itself, your dismissal of the majority opinion as "biased towards Eorzea" while you're the one who can see their negative actions for what they truly are.

So, when you propose this new Discord with the declaration that:

I want to establish a place where people can discuss the game's lore and not feel as though they have to tread on eggshells or find themselves insulted for liking a different character/faction to someone else.

...it seems at odds with your post history. You might not directly insult people's opinions, but you take a condescending attitude towards them. The majority is wrong and biased, and you know better.

And again, that's not the attitude I want to see in a moderator - by implication, someone who should be moderate. Not an outlier in the debate with a strong opinion.

If only we could clone a team of Mooses... Moose... Meece?