The coming Garlean invasion

[Theodric]

How Rowena and Lolorito (through Hancock) run their companies is not the responsibility of all Eorzea, and blaming the entire region for a couple of known corrupt business people is not fair. Furthermore the act itself isn't attempting to dodge Hingan tariffs (or smuggle goods into Hingashi), but to set up another port so they can trade more freely in the region. There's nothing illegal or shady about what they're doing, beyond that it reduces the Hingan government's revenue... and if they manage to set up that port on Eureka and Hingashi loses government revenue as a result, well, that's on them for having such high tariffs the Eorzeans don't want to do business there.

It is a red herring. The topic of discussion is a looming conflict with the Garlean Empire, not how a couple of Eorzean companies are attempting to get around Hingan tariffs in the greater Othardian region.

As I pointed out in another thread, if the exact same scenario was playing out and it was Eorzea on the receiving end then Eorzea would very likely be crying foul. Imperialistic tendencies are imperialistic tendencies. Garlemald needs to work on how it operates on the world stage, yet so too does Eorzea. One can criticise both, after all.

I tend to look at the overall picture rather than arguing from the angle of 'Eorzea is always correct'. If others wish to do otherwise, so be it - though I strongly disagree with the idea of brushing aside Eorzea's growing imperialistic behaviour. Let's not pretend as if Eorzea is a particularly pleasant place. Very few places in Hydaelyn are without issues, even those that have undergone reform.

It's actually pretty startling how many posters on this board rush to blame anyone but Eorzea when something shady takes place. You do realise that Hingashi endured great turmoil, right? As in, the entire place was undergoing strife and hardship as a result of a power struggle. There's currently a period of peace. So, no - people don't get to go 'ahaha thats on them if hingashi's government falls xD'. If an Eorzean organisation heavily tied to a specific member of the Eorzean Alliance caused suffering through imperialistic actions then it is Eorzea that shoulders the blame.

Hingashi is free to set tariffs as it sees fit. It does not deserve to be undermined by those seeking to exploit the region for their own gain, especially when those individuals are not even native to the region. It's exactly why there are laws in place in the real world to prevent foreign countries from profiteering off of certain ventures.

[ObsidianFire]

The exact description of what is going on in Eureka is this....

Rowena
It's good to see a familiar face in these parts─particularly that o' the woman who might well be my most valued customer.

Hancock
I gather you were not expecting Krile or myself to be attending this little tête-à-tête. As you will see, however, this is a matter which concerns us all.
It all began when a vessel of the East Aldenard Trading Company happened upon an island in the Glass Ocean. A deserted island which was not recorded on our charts and, quite frankly, had no business being there.
Suffice it to say, we were surprised. Pleasantly so, in fact. An unclaimed, undeveloped island in such a location would be a boon to our trading concerns in this corner of the world.

Rowena
Kugane's bleedin' us both dry with its tariffs. Dependin' on the goods, we're paying more than ten times what we'd owe in Limsa or Ul'dah─which is already too damn much, believe you me.

Hancock
What my dear Rowena is trying to say is that having an additional port of call in this region─one more amenable to free trade─would be in the best interests of a great many parties.
Which is why, upon learning of this island, I immediately authorized an exploratory expedition. The team was large and well-funded─I spared no expense. Alas, only a handful returned.
The survivors reported “irregularities” with the island's aether, which we believe gave rise to a number of strange and monstrous beasts─beasts which set upon them not long after they arrived.
This regrettable turn of events forced us to reevaluate our assessment of the island and put our plans on hold for a time. If development was to proceed, it would require a great deal more capital than originally anticipated...

Rowena
So he came to me and mine for a handout, and I obliged. But before you scoff, know that some of my regular customers were members o' that failed expedition, and what they told me was enough to justify the expense.
Tales o' treasure, of untold wealth and riches and gods know what else. Aye, we'll have to wade through all 'em beasties, but with great risk comes great reward, as they say.

Hancock
Spoken like a born entrepreneur! Your ambition and ruthlessness are admirable, my lady. I daresay I could stand to learn a thing or two from you.
...In any event, having formed our partnership, we wish to dispatch a second joint expeditionary force to the island. That said, if we were to send just anyone, their fate is like to be the same as that of the first.

Rowena
So this time, we've a mind to send a dab hand. A veteran of a thousand thousand battles. A tried and true killer. You see where I'm goin' with this?

It's worth noting that there is literally no other ports in Hingashi foreigners can come too. And if the Samurai quests are anything to go by, that could change really quickly depending on who is in power. Having another port that isn't dependent on the Hingan government's whims would benefit not only Eorzea, but all the other countries who want to do business in the region.

There's also literally no one else who would fund this kind of thing. Eureka is a death-trap of an island to the point that Rowena asks the WoL to be the muscle for it. The city states aren't going to be interested; they've got Garlemald to worry about. Depending on where it is the Glass Ocean, Hingashi wouldn't be interested in it; it might not be close enough to their main island. Even if they were interested in it, the odds of them having people strong enough to clear Eureka is really low. The trading companies though? Not only do they have a good reason to want Eureka cleared, they also have the capital to throw at it. And the connections...

[Theodric]

Hingashi was kind enough to open up Kugane to to rest of the world, a rare move for a nation that is content to isolate itself. The wording that Rowena and Hancock use suggests that exploiting the Isle of Val will be of great benefit to a great many parties, yet something tells me they only have specific parties in mind. Eorzea's hubris and lack of control over organisations operating on its behalf is becoming rather troublesome and worrying. We already have one imperialistic nation trying to strong arm other nations for their own benefit...do we really need a second? It also highlights that even if Garlemald is subdued, Eorzea's continued disregard and disrespect for the other nations of the world is going to be a major issue.

The Confederacy was also given aid on a number of occasions by the Warrior of Light and other individuals operating on Eorzea's behalf. An organisation that resorts to strong arming passing vessels into paying its 'Ruby Tithe'. Any who refuse are stripped of their belongings and taken prisoner - as can be seen with some of the flavour NPC's situated within their home base.

It's all rather interesting. It shows that many parties are willing to exploit the Warrior of Light for their own gain, even when it causes suffering for others. It does suit the Warrior of Light's 'mercenary' nature, mind you - they're an adventurer at the end of the day and it would seem that they don't particularly care at times who is paying them and for what so long as they're being paid.

[Iscah]

As I pointed out in another thread, if the exact same scenario was playing out and it was Eorzea on the receiving end then Eorzea would very likely be crying foul. Imperialistic tendencies are imperialistic tendencies. Garlemald needs to work on how it operates on the world stage, yet so too does Eorzea. One can criticise both, after all.

And as I pointed out in that thread, if a private company is circumventing Hingan tariffs in Hingan territory, then it is Hingashi's job to do something about it.

If the scenario was playing out in reverse - if a Hingan merchant company was trying to set up camp on an unclaimed island off the coast of Aldenard - who would be dealing with that? Would the Eorzeans expect the Hingan government to send someone (diplomats? soldiers?) to sort it out, or would they send their own people to claim the island as rightfully part of their territory and under their jurisdiction?

It could be seen as more of an "imperialistic" move to send official Eorzean representatives halfway across the world to Eureka and enforce Eorzean law, than to leave the issue to be dealt with by the country that owns the territory.

[Iscah]

The exact description of what is going on in Eureka is this....

I think it's also worth quoting the next few lines of script after Rowena and Hancock's conversation that you posted.

KRILE
While I lack your aptitude for warcraft, I will be joining the expedition as a researcher. The Scions have an interest in this island─
...How perceptive of you. You are right─this is not the sort of affair that would normally concern us. However, after speaking with the others, they have consented to my participation, on account of my personal interest...
You will forgive me if I say no more at this time. If my suspicions prove true, then I will tell you everything. I promise.

HANCOCK
Right, then. I believe that covers everything! The company ship that will deliver you to the island is waiting to receive you. You may proceed to the pier whenever you are ready to depart.

...which leaves the option to interpret our willingness to assist the Eureka expedition as purely to help Krile and the Scions, while furthering the aims of Rowena and the EATC is an unfortunate side-effect. I'd like to think we would have refused if it was just Rowena and Hancock asking us to help with a business venture.

[Theodric]

And as I pointed out in that thread, if a private company is circumventing Hingan tariffs in Hingan territory, then it is Hingashi's job to do something about it.

If the scenario was playing out in reverse - if a Hingan merchant company was trying to set up camp on an unclaimed island off the coast of Aldenard - who would be dealing with that? Would the Eorzeans expect the Hingan government to send someone (diplomats? soldiers?) to sort it out, or would they send their own people to claim the island as rightfully part of their territory and under their jurisdiction?

It could be seen as more of an "imperialistic" move to send official Eorzean representatives halfway across the world to Eureka and enforce Eorzean law, than to leave the issue to be dealt with by the country that owns the territory.

It ceases to be a private company when it influences government decisions and makes use of what is essentially a living super weapon for its own ends.

I suspect this is yet another case of the '#EorzeaDidNothingWrong' card being pulled out, as it tends to be used for pretty much everything these days.

It isn't just Hingashi's responsibility to deal with the matter. Eorzea and those operating under its banner, have a responsibility to act with dignity and respect on the world stage. If they do not, then they need to be called out on it - not encouraged or dismissed.

I'd also highlight my earlier point. Hingashi suffered immense strife in the past and is currently enjoying a period of peace. Hingashi's current strength is trade - if that is lessened, then there's a real risk of further instability. If it results in bloodshed - as is likely, due to the nation's history - then innocent people will suffer and perish.

That blood would, to a degree, be on the hands of those seeking to undermine Hingashi.

Trade wars are not pleasant - and depending on how they play out, they can be just as nasty as physical wars.

I do not doubt that if it was Garlemald engaging in such practices that there would be a huge condemnation and cry for vengeance from various posters on this board. So it is rather strange to see imperialistic and dubious actions dismissed whenever they're at the hands of Eorzean based organisations and representatives.

[Keever]

snip

Hingashi opening up Kugane obviously served their own interests, and was not done an act of "kindness".

The Confederacy is ostensibly the sovereign power of the Ruby Sea (at least the surface of it) and has been so "since antiquity". They are collecting taxes on travellers through their territory in accordance with their own laws, such as they are. They're not a bunch of criminals, and calling them "pirates" is really a bit of a misnomer.

If Hingashi has issues with the setup of a trading post in the Glass Ocean then they ought to do something about it through diplomacy or direct action. They would certainly be fully capable of stymieing the EATC's activites in Kugane (where most vessels affiliated with the Eureka expedition would have to make stop) if they so wished.

You needn't look absolutely everywhere to try to come up with claims that Eorzea is a belligerent aggressor and other nations are hapless victims. I mean, really!

[ObsidianFire]

The Confederacy was also given aid on a number of occasions by the Warrior of Light and other individuals operating on Eorzea's behalf. An organisation that resorts to strong arming passing vessels into paying its 'Ruby Tithe'. Any who refuse are stripped of their belongings and taken prisoner - as can be seen with some of the flavour NPC's situated within their home base.

The Confederacy has also had jurisdiction over the Ruby Sea for as long as everyone in Doma and Hingashi can remember. If Hingashi really wanted the Confederates out of the Ruby Sea, they would have forced them out long ago. The only reason why Hingashi has refused to play ball with the Confederates in recent times is because Yotsuyu declared them to be unlawful under Garlean rule. The Hingans decided that was fine since that meant they didn't have to pay the Ruby Tithe which they'd been paying for as long as they could remember.

Incidentally, the East Aldenard Trading Company isn't complaining about the Confederates' tithe; they're just happy to be able to do business with them since the Confederates have stuff the EATC wants at reasonable prices. Ironically the people who are buying Confederate goods from the EATC is Hingashi, who the Conferates used to do a lot of business with. Ever since the Confederates were banned from coming to Kugane there's been a shortage of goods from the Ruby Sea in Kugane itself.

And as I pointed out in that thread, if a private company is circumventing Hingan tariffs in Hingan territory, then it is Hingashi's job to do something about it.

If the scenario was playing out in reverse - if a Hingan merchant company was trying to set up camp on an unclaimed island off the coast of Aldenard - who would be dealing with that? Would the Eorzeans expect the Hingan government to send someone (diplomats? soldiers?) to sort it out, or would they send their own people to claim the island as rightfully part of their territory and under their jurisdiction?

Provided they weren't bothering the Eorzeans, the Eorzeans probably wouldn't do anything. As it is, this is already happening somewhat, only it's not with Hingashi, it's with the remains of the XIVth Legion. Castrum Marinum is portrayed as being somewhere near The Cieldalaes, a group of islands in the Rhotano Sea halfway between Limsa Lominsa and Ul'dah. It'd be pretty hard to find a better place to threaten Eorzean shipping lanes. If the other Castrums are anything to go by, Eorzea isn't doing anything about them provided they don't start anything either (yes, I know the time-bubble is a thing, but considering Balasaur's Wall is still manned after all this time... yeah...). So Castrum Marinum is most likely still there. And if the Eorzeans are so busy they aren't bothering with the XIVth Legion, I have a really hard time seeing them bothering with anyone else.

Besides, that sounds like it'd be something right up Limsa's alley to look into. And Limsa only really cares about stuff like that if traders don't stick to the code. So long as they are legitimatize traders and not smugglers, I don't see anyone having a problem if Hingashi pulled something like that.

[Theodric]

You needn't look absolutely everywhere to try to come up with claims that Eorzea is a belligerent aggressor and other nations are hapless victims. I mean, really!

One never needs to look far to see examples of Eorzea's not so perfect behaviour. I suspect a large part of the issue is that many come here not to discuss the lore as a whole, but to gush over Eorzea and Eorzeans at every turn.

It remains to be seen whether or not Hingashi responds to Eorzea's subtle attempt at a trade war. It may not even be aware of the move at the moment. It may not even manifest if the Isle of Val proves to be too dangerous on a long term basis. Yet it is shocking to see people here rush to brush it off despite the negative consequences that exist for Hingashi. Even if Hingashi does not respond, that does not mean that the act itself is suddenly acceptable. Especially when Eorzea has actively resisted imperialistic attempts to bring it to heel in the past. It's an interesting case of hypocrisy and I hope it is addressed again in the future. It'd be pleasant to see Eorzea suffer some setbacks for a change, especially on the world stage.

[Iscah]

I suspect this is yet another case of the '#EorzeaDidNothingWrong' card being pulled out, as it tends to be used for pretty much everything these days.

I'm not saying Eorzea has done nothing wrong. There are dark elements in each of the countries of the Alliance. Pirates in Limsa, corruption in Ul'dah, Ishgard's past. But at the same time in all these places, the countries' current leaders are people who want to change that, improve the lives of their people and make a better future. I'm hopeful that they can live up to those ideals. (And equally hopeful that the good side of Garlemald can overcome the country's dark core and change it for the better, too.)

But the things you keep bringing up are not the negative things that do exist in the Eorzean states. You're focusing on this private trade enterprise and holding it up as a sign of the Alliance having "imperialistic tendencies" then asking why nobody is condemning Eorzea's imperialistic tendencies. And the answer, for me at least, is because it isn't showing them.

It's not #EorzeaDidNothingWrong, it's #EorzeaDidn'tDoWhatYou'reBlamingThemForDoing.


So, aside of your belief that the government should be held diplomatically responsible for the actions of a private company, what is the Eorzean Alliance doing that is imperialistic? They are not trying to expand their borders or take over other countries.

I don't think they even want to directly engage with Garlemald. The problem is that their actual enemy, an Ascian, is deep in the heart of it.

I'm rewatching the cutscene of the meeting on Youtube, which isn't playing really well on my computer so I might have missed some lines, but the concerns they talk about are a potential inability to defend themselves if Garlemald attempts to retake Doma and Ala Mhigo, and how to target the Ascian-disguised-as-Zenos within Garlemald, rather than the country.

I'm also uneasy about their plans to destabilise the Empire by spreading unrest (which wasn't even the theme of the conversation until Thancred proposed his scheme), but their motive is not imperialistic. They are not doing it so they can swoop in and capture Garlemald for themselves. Their concern remains the mission that the Scions have been committed to from the start - except now it has become bigger and more difficult and tangled up in world politics.

I'm not sure I like it, but I can see - from all our interactions with them so far - that the people making these choices are good people, trying to do what's best for their world and fight a darkness that goes beyond countries and politics and into the very core of reality. I want to think that what they are doing is the best decision they could make in the circumstances.

All this does not put me against the prospect of Garlemald being redeemable or internally complex. Or seeing fault in the actions of the Eorzean Alliance if it is actual fault on the part of the Alliance and not unallied individuals who happen to come from their country.

Provided they weren't bothering the Eorzeans, the Eorzeans probably wouldn't do anything. As it is, this is already happening somewhat, only it's not with Hingashi, it's with the remains of the XIVth Legion. Castrum Marinum is portrayed as being somewhere near The Cieldalaes, a group of islands in the Rhotano Sea halfway between Limsa Lominsa and Ul'dah. It'd be pretty hard to find a better place to threaten Eorzean shipping lanes. If the other Castrums are anything to go by, Eorzea isn't doing anything about them provided they don't start anything either (yes, I know the time-bubble is a thing, but considering Balasaur's Wall is still manned after all this time... yeah...). So Castrum Marinum is most likely still there. And if the Eorzeans are so busy they aren't bothering with the XIVth Legion, I have a really hard time seeing them bothering with anyone else.

Fair point - going by their lack of action against the castrums, they may not be concerned about the hypothetical Hingan trading post either. But if it happened, and they did object, I still think it would be their own responsibility (and/or right) to act against it rather than expecting Hingashi to deal with it for them.

I suspect a large part of the issue is that many come here not to discuss the lore as a whole, but to gush over Eorzea and Eorzeans at every turn.

You say that like gushing over likeable characters from the 'home' country of a fictional world designed for our enjoyment is a bad thing.