Things to think about before you call someone "Bad"

[Vidu]

Kicking for failure to meet other standards isn't listed under reasons to kick, to my knowledge doing so is reportable (Or at least used to be).
If a whole party is suffering, they can leave as individuals or vote abandon. Further more they could also talk to each other and solve it like adults.

Kicking for "difference in playstyle" is a legit reason to kick someone - so as long as you're not insulting the person in question, you can remove them from a party for making mistakes, even in DF (when you set up your own PF you set the rules anyways and if someone doesnt meet your standards, you can always remove them - again: without being a jerk about it, of course).

If the whole party is suffering and its clear as day to everyone whos fault that is, why should the time of 3/7 (and in rare cases: 23) people be wasted or why should someone take the 30 minute penalty, when the whole dungeon could easly be completed with a competent person?
Even more so, when advice was given and the "bad player" still didnt act on it.
I actually had a mute (and undergeared...) bard in The Burn lately. They werent using songs, they weren communicating, they werent reacting to anything that we said in chat. The rest of the group - me (pld), my boyfriend (BLM) and a friend of ours (WHM) - did absolutly fine and we would have probably been able to clear the dungeon despite that bard not having the faintest idea of how to play at level 70 and ignoring polite and friendly advice/requests to make use of his basic abilities.

Why should we tolerate such behaviour? And why should one of us get punished for it by leaving the dungeon?
If the majority decides "I'd rather not play with this person", why should that person remain in the dungeon instead of the majority of players who are perfectly fine with finishing the run together?

[HyoMinPark]

This is ridiculous why don't you just stop playing If new players annoy you. Expectations? The point in doing raids and dungeons are to progress the game maybe instead of expecting someone else to know something maybe you get off your high horse remember when you first played the game. Did you know all the dungeons and cycles NO YOU DIDNT. By all the posts so far I've ready is Damn the New Player because he/she does know anything.
Thank goodness SE does not base sales off of arrogant "know it all" who bash a game that you PAY FOR!!!!!! Good grief have some fun with the game. Lighten the hell up

There’s a difference between poor performance due to being a brand new player to FFXIV and poor performance in high-end content, which you see far more often than not. And once you hit level 70, you are no longer considered new to this game. You’ve progressed to endgame, and you need to start learning your role instead of just yoloing it. Just saying.

[SenorPatty]

So you'd rather sit there, bully someone until they kick/report you, than either take a penalty OR put up with it for a temporary amount of time? (Hoping your answer is No)
I'm quite convinced players ended up like this because they don't even play the game for the most part anymore. They boost their chars from the store, followed by face plunging into the PoTD/HoH.
Regardless of whatever method they took to get there, they still have the right to suck and unless they ask for help/I offer them guidance without being a tosser about it (and they accept), there is simply no reason for interaction (unless you're talking in general - the weather/lunch/how salty people on the forum are being today).

No half decent human being is going to willingly put the stick up their backsides and start raging at some innocent bystander they've never met before and are 90% likely to never meet again. Right?
Gets you arrested and/or banned from places IRL.

Get me?

As others have said, I don't advocate bullying. But I should be able to hold you accountable in a reasonable context and manner.

Players not using their main asset as part of their job should be questioned and depending on which content we're doing, it can be anywhere from "Can you please cast dots or use songs?" to "Are you seriously trolling us or just being purposefully bad?"

The issue is, as OP made clear, is that our first recourse should be making the assumptions she made in her post.

[Vidu]

This is ridiculous why don't you just stop playing If new players annoy you. Expectations? The point in doing raids and dungeons are to progress the game maybe instead of expecting someone else to know something maybe you get off your high horse remember when you first played the game. Did you know all the dungeons and cycles NO YOU DIDNT. By all the posts so far I've ready is Damn the New Player because he/she does know anything.
Thank goodness SE does not base sales off of arrogant "know it all" who bash a game that you PAY FOR!!!!!! Good grief have some fun with the game. Lighten the hell up

Most people arent talking about "new players" though - they're talking about players who reached the maximum level of the current expansion and are trying their hands on current endgame dungeons/raids/trials.

At this point your so called "new player" went through about 200 instances and even more hours of playing the game. They're not new anymore.

New players dont annoy me (and I think its the same for a lot of other people) - specially not the ones being vocal about it, asking for advice and taking it.
Lazy people annoy the hell out of me. People who despite playing for hundreds of hours and having seen mechanics at least 20 times, not having figured out what to do and if you give them advice or an explantion or ask them to do stuff a certain way, get defensive or aggressive and do exactly what you did here: Telling me that they PAY THEIR SUB AND ARE THEREFOR ALLOWED TO DO WHATEVER THEY WANT.
They're not. This is a game that requires you to work as a team, and yes at a certain point it requires you to know how to do your job.
Past level 50 the excuse "I'm new!" doesnt fly anymore when its such basic things as tanks tanking, healers healing and dps knowing their basic rotation(s).

We're not talking about the level 16 sprout in Sastasha, who doesnt know what to do.
We're talking about the level 70 bard in The Burn (latest dungeon) who isnt using their DoTs or songs (both key-skills of a bard) - thats not "being new", thats "being bad" or "not caring". And if they dont care, I dont care for them.

[MoroMurasaki]

Most people arent talking about "new players" though - they're talking about players who reached the maximum level of the current expansion and are trying their hands on current endgame dungeons/raids/trials.

At this point your so called "new player" went through about 200 instances and even more hours of playing the game. They're not new anymore.

New players dont annoy me (and I think its the same for a lot of other people) - specially not the ones being vocal about it, asking for advice and taking it.
Lazy people annoy the hell out of me. People who despite playing for hundreds of hours and having seen mechanics at least 20 times, not having figured out what to do and if you give them advice or an explantion or ask them to do stuff a certain way, get defensive or aggressive and do exactly what you did here: Telling me that they PAY THEIR SUB AND ARE THEREFOR ALLOWED TO DO WHATEVER THEY WANT.
They're not. This is a game that requires you to work as a team, and yes at a certain point it requires you to know how to do your job.
Past level 50 the excuse "I'm new!" doesnt fly anymore when its such basic things as tanks tanking, healers healing and dps knowing their basic rotation(s).

We're not talking about the level 16 sprout in Sastasha, who doesnt know what to do.
We're talking about the level 70 bard in The Burn (latest dungeon) who isnt using their DoTs or songs (both key-skills of a bard) - thats not "being new", thats "being bad" or "not caring". And if they dont care, I dont care for them.

I wish I could put this whole post in my signature so I could just point at it from time to time.

[Rokke]

������ What's a mute bard?
And why would you be playing with someone that long if you don't like how they play?

(Ice maging is hillarious. Should try it in something like Garuda hm or somewhere Ice 1, Ice 2, Ice 3, FREEEEZE - got half the comms assuming from the people who noticed lol)

A mute bard is a bard that doesnt sing. One would hope that by the time someone hits 70 they figured out that they should be rotating through them...but they'd be disappointed. I told them to read a guide and we booted them after Rabnasty's 2nd boss. As half the party agreed with a a mute bard being a waste of a slot, the vote went through and we got a replacement that did well enough.

This is ridiculous why don't you just stop playing If new players annoy you. Expectations? The point in doing raids and dungeons are to progress the game maybe instead of expecting someone else to know something maybe you get off your high horse remember when you first played the game. Did you know all the dungeons and cycles NO YOU DIDNT. By all the posts so far I've ready is Damn the New Player because he/she does know anything.
Thank goodness SE does not base sales off of arrogant "know it all" who bash a game that you PAY FOR!!!!!! Good grief have some fun with the game. Lighten the hell up

Eating an unfamiliar mechanic because you are new is understandable, if not expected.
Mistiming your newest skills in a leveling dungeon is is understandable, if not expected.
Not using your core abilities in Alphascape 3 will get you a boot at the 5 min mark and no amount of "ThINK o F THE nEWBIEs!!!1!" should sway that.

[WaterShield]

And I'm telling you, your example is laughably absurd, especially given the context I responded to. By your logic, someone running the purple marker into the stack in o12n did nothing wrong. After all, "it's only a game." People have no right to be annoyed a basic mechanic that everyone should be aware of by level 70 just wiped the entire group. A less obvious example would be the DPS yelling at the tank for aggro issues yet when asked if they used Diversion, they respond with "You're a tank! I shouldn't have to!!" This is essentially telling the tank "cater to me because I can't be bothered to press a button which impacts my rotation in no way whatsoever."

So no, it isn't I who needs further clarification...

You've utterly failed at reproducing my logic, but congratulations on creating a square in four spaces: the post.

I would like to see you respond to the Bold part of Bourne_Endeavors quote. Can you explain to me in what way dropping a mechanic on the party that wipes them no matter how topped up their health is, is sub optimal play rather than just doing it wrong? I'm legitimately curious as to how you feel about that situation.

[Jijifli]

This is ridiculous why don't you just stop playing If new players annoy you. Expectations? The point in doing raids and dungeons are to progress the game maybe instead of expecting someone else to know something maybe you get off your high horse remember when you first played the game. Did you know all the dungeons and cycles NO YOU DIDNT. By all the posts so far I've ready is Damn the New Player because he/she does know anything.
Thank goodness SE does not base sales off of arrogant "know it all" who bash a game that you PAY FOR!!!!!! Good grief have some fun with the game. Lighten the hell up

If you're new, you're in some of the first dungeons, and you don't know what you're doing, that's expected. New people will not know some things, and that's okay. You cannot be any more bad at a game than when you were level 1 only just starting.

The difference is, what do you do from there? This is why WoW seems to suffer the "same issue" despite even Blizzard stating that the playerbase over there has been getting better and better. it HAS gotten better and better, but that's for the top people. There are players that will seem to do everything in their power to not learn a thing. A level 70 in Suzaku is not a level 1 that just started the game. They've leveled. They've done content. They've seen some of these moves already.

That's the difference. Do you want to stay at the same skill level of a level 1, or try to improve? You wanna know my expectation in an expert roulette? The tank has kept threat. The healer let nobody die. The dps at least knows what single target 1 2 3 is. Yes, I am even stating that I don't even expect dps to aoe 10+ mobs anymore because it's so rare.

[SerLuke]

I agree - I don't think anyone should be kicking anyone in DF - you leave or you stick it out.
But the problem of not holding people to account - or at the very least asking people to have a very basic grasp of how things should work - bleeds into every part of the game.
Personally I've not seen anyone behave horrendously in the DF - anecdotal and of course I know it does happen. But I think it's a huge leap to say questioning a BLM as to why they can't cast their basic rotation is on the same level as threatening to kill them irl or something equally foolish, for example.
I just don't think it's a massive problem, or at least to the extent some people feel it is.
I know it's kind of a wash to say 'Internet get used to it' or similar, but really, bad people exist and good people have a bad day occasionally. But it happens, in all onlne activities.
I think we shouldn't be conflating questioning bad play with internet harassment.

I’ve seen those situations, I had a friend who was new to DRK and someone in the party kept going on about how he was a crap player (using more friendly terms here), for tanking in grit.

[BloodRubyXII]

What's with this generation trying to find ways to say people underperforming or being lazy in any activity is fine?

Fixed that.