Things to think about before you call someone "Bad"

[SerLuke]

And nothing will stop me from creating them, because i don't want and don't have to downgrade my clear or farm parties to practice and learning parties.
My PF party, my rules.
If you don't like them, don't join.

Do you leave if you make a mistake?

[Vaer]

Do you leave if you make a mistake?

TBH in my experience those PFs don't actually kick people after 1 mistake - most of the time I feel like it's just there to scare people into not joining/trying to get people who are confident. Some of them do, but most of them don't seem to care as long as the group clears consistently. It only leads to kicks if there is someone 100% has no idea what they are doing (it's easy to tell anyways if you know the mechanics) and preventing the group from clearing.

Most of the time it's a pain to leave the instance, kick the person and then refill the party. Multiple people can just leave at that point.

[Legion88]

Do you leave if you make a mistake?

Yes, i bow before my own rules.
Why shouldn't I?
A rule is a rule and has to be enforced or it is useless.

[gamepob]

Do you leave if you make a mistake?

Oh, this is a gold one. Thumbs up.
Don't expect an honest answer, though.

I understand the problems of hard content and underperforming groups. I've been there on multiple occasions. On both sides. And I do value and accept a good advice. If it's presented as an advice and not an insult. A lot of people in this thread have a valid point when they try to help someone who is not performing to their expectations. Now, every single one of us will evaluate others based on our personal set of values, which means being objective is practically impossible. But, since we "all" try to be as objective as possible, let's say that's not a problem. The problem lies in the fact that not many people realise it's not the words you use as much as the way you use them. And this problem is even bigger in a situation where a person only has one way of expressing themselves. By typing their thoughts. This leaves the other person with the "problem" of translating the meaning. Is it an advice, insult, sarcasm or just words of a stoner or drunk?

So, while some players should be more accepting of an advice, some others should be more careful of how they word their advice.

This thread made me realize FF community may not be as toxic as I initially thought. Thank you OP.

[SerLuke]

So I have no buisness to ask the tank "please use flash", because I'd like my level 70 dungeon to go as nice and smooth as it should with a level 70 tank who apparently never figured out how to use a level 6 skill and how to perform the basics of their job? Me asking that tank to perform such basics is the problem? Not the tank who hasnt learned that in 70 levels?

Sure, the people who just want to enjoy their game and are asking others in a polite and friendly way to do their share of the team work in a dungeon run are the problem - not the people who need to be asked to do the most basic tasks of their job... at level 70... in endgame content...

Telling someone "Please use [skill] it does [this]" is clearly insulting /sarcasm off

I don’t think anyone is opposed to that kind of advice it’s the “LOL this DRK is using grit what a **** player” type “advice” that is soured people.

[SerLuke]

*has soured*

sorry it won’t let me edit on my phone.

[van_arn]

I don’t think anyone is opposed to that kind of advice it’s the “LOL this DRK is using grit what a **** player” type “advice” that is soured people.

This is why I'm such a huge proponent of silently kicking people. Because you can tell a tank "please use flash" and most of the time they'll respond as if you just kicked their favorite puppy, if they respond at all.

They just need to get gone if they don't know to flash at 70, or if they're an autoattacking dragoon, or if they're an icemage.

[Vidu]

I don’t think anyone is opposed to that kind of advice it’s the “LOL this DRK is using grit what a **** player” type “advice” that is soured people.

One would hope so - I've been in enough discussions on this forum and to an extend ingame when I gave advice in exactly that way and people either told me that its rude and toxic to give advice at all if the person hasnt asked for it or got outright mad at me for even implying that they might not be playing perfectly.
When I ask "May I give you some advice?" to be super-polite, I often get meet with silence - which I'm apparently supposed to take as "No", but I'll be damned if I dont tell that tank to use their damn AeO-aggro-skill when mobs are chewing on the healer, myself and the poor melee-dps.

Just implying that someone is doing something wrong is already toxic in some peoples opinion, even if you're "implying" in the nicestes way possible by giving friendly, polite and on-point advice.

I recall a ninja blindly running into the bossroom of the third boss of the vault once, while the tank and healer were still watching the cutscene. Ninja died. I quite literally told the healer "Dont raise him to avoid the weakness, he can teleport back" - which was such an outragoues thing to say that the ninja complained about it for the next two minutes. I didnt comment on him being an idiot for charging into the bossroom, I didnt call him out on that even - I just made a very simple statement and explained why in relation to an ingame-mechanic.

...you'd be surprised how bad advice is recived by a lot of people - the thread I mentioned early? Guy in question needed 20 pages of people telling him what he did wrong and how to do better to finally agree on looking into a guide.

I'm a terribly naive person, so I still try to give advice - and I can hear the heavy sigh of my boyfriend right now who always asks me "Why do you even bother? They wont listen anyways..."
Normally I'm right about stuff. This is the one time he beats me.

[van_arn]

One would hope so - I've been in enough discussions on this forum and to an extend ingame when I gave advice in exactly that way and people either told me that its rude and toxic to give advice at all if the person hasnt asked for it or got outright mad at me for even implying that they might not be playing perfectly.
When I ask "May I give you some advice?" to be super-polite, I often get meet with silence - which I'm apparently supposed to take as "No", but I'll be damned if I dont tell that tank to use their damn AeO-aggro-skill when mobs are chewing on the healer, myself and the poor melee-dps.

Just implying that someone is doing something wrong is already toxic in some peoples opinion, even if you're "implying" in the nicestes way possible by giving friendly, polite and on-point advice.

I recall a ninja blindly running into the bossroom of the third boss of the vault once, while the tank and healer were still watching the cutscene. Ninja died. I quite literally told the healer "Dont raise him to avoid the weakness, he can teleport back" - which was such an outragoues thing to say that the ninja complained about it for the next two minutes. I didnt comment on him being an idiot for charging into the bossroom, I didnt call him out on that even - I just made a very simple statement and explained why in relation to an ingame-mechanic.

...you'd be surprised how bad advice is recived by a lot of people - the thread I mentioned early? Guy in question needed 20 pages of people telling him what he did wrong and how to do better to finally agree on looking into a guide.

I'm a terribly naive person, so I still try to give advice - and I can hear the heavy sigh of my boyfriend right now who always asks me "Why do you even bother? They wont listen anyways..."
Normally I'm right about stuff. This is the one time he beats me.

Yeah, the 300 commendations so he's a pro guy. He'll be back; he changed his name and I sincerely doubt he learned anything from his second go through the forums.

Granted, he was making progress. He was using shield lob only his first time in a normal dungeon, halone combo only his second in Rabinastre, and JUST MAYBE he'll be using royal authority AND a cooldown for his third run-in. IF the Seven will it.

[Vidu]

Yeah, the 300 commendations so he's a pro guy. He'll be back; he changed his name and I sincerely doubt he learned anything from his second go through the forums.

Granted, he was making progress. He was using shield lob only his first time in a normal dungeon, halone combo only his second in Rabinastre, and JUST MAYBE he'll be using royal authority AND a cooldown for his third run-in. IF the Seven will it.

Exactly. People like that are the reason that I dont believe in the whole "only give advice when they ask you for it"-thing - because the people who need "advice" (or rather: an explantion of the most simple and basic things) the most are also the ones most oblivious to know about their desperate need to look up a tutorial or a job guide. They've cleared everything - or rather: got carried through everything - so they must be doing GREAT! They havent read their tooltips and took a minute to think about what they've read, so they'll be the last ones to (self)reflect after a wipe and ask themself "Could I have caused or prevented this?"

They need to get the message of "You're not doing fine, sorry" - personally I prefer to deliver that in the form of a polite message, either with exact advice or a general "Please look up a guide on your job".
The method of silent kicks might work aswell.

...even though, thinking about it now, we both might be wrong - they're not even reading their tooltips, so why would they read my advice... and they're not asking themselves if they made a mistake or could have done better after a wipe, so they probably wont selfreflect after a votekick either (funny enough that guy complained in his first thread that he wasnt kicked sooner - he was kicked at the last boss and complained about his time being wasted. So... if he'd gotten kicked sooner, he would have just jumped right into the next party, learning nothing)... at least after a kick they're not your problem anymore.