Its ffxiv combat really so slow and boring?

[MoroMurasaki]

That's wrong.

So it saves two buttons.

I just don't think that's worth it.

If it isn't broken don't fix it. Never truer than it is for SE.

[Penthea]

So if I'm correct there is some debate here about having the pvp combat system in pve? I can understand why people like the idea but I don't think it would work very well. It works in pvp because classes have been brought down to a very basic level. I don't think it would work for a full set of lvl 70 abilities. It might work for some classes, but I seriously doubt it would work for them all. And it would be pretty meaningless for healers given they don't have any sort of combo system or strict rotation.

[kikix12]

So it saves two buttons.

I just don't think that's worth it.

If it isn't broken don't fix it. Never truer than it is for SE.

Two buttons for Samurai that uses Meikyo Shisui for getting quick buffs. Four buttons for a samurai that does not. Three buttons for all tanks. Three buttons for Monk (though it's a bit different way of counting combos). Potentially four buttons for Red Mage, though this would be a little bit more coding (since it would need to check whether the swift cast is triggered as well).

You say that it's not worth it...but current role actions are result of Square Enix trying to "save space" on hotbars. And so is the removal of skills like Stoneskin, Scourge, that Dragoons skill where they swing on their lance and so on. That's two or three skills saved from being erased with next expansion to make place for new skills.

[HyoMinPark]

That's wrong. It's a proof of you not understanding what was written beforehand. I said exactly how a proper cycling would work, and what MomomiMomi wrote suggests this is what she has in mind.

Apparently I was ignored back then for the sake of arguing with her, or it was not understood. So I'll write it up all nice and dandy, using samurai as the example.

How am I “ignoring” your comment? I didn’t even see it because this conversation was evolving too fast. I came in to talk about Momodi’s comment about controllers not having enough space, and it evolved to this. Calm down, please.



This still doesn’t address other jobs such as BRD, which I previously outlined prior. It’s PvP rotation is nothing like PvE, and unless they allow for customization of things like song orders (and where I can use my oGCDs like Bloodletter and Barrage), it messes with having to alternate songs, because there are situations where you do deviate from the standard rotation.

You say that it's not worth it...but current role actions are result of Square Enix trying to "save space" on hotbars. And so is the removal of skills like Stoneskin, Scourge, that Dragoons skill where they swing on their lance and so on. That's two or three skills saved from being erased with next expansion to make place for new skills.

Skills like Ring of Thorns and Phlebotimze (and most of the DoTs previous jobs had) were removed to simplify jobs and make them easier. Not because of button bloat. Some of the skills they placed in the role actions have no effect on the amount of buttons you had previously, because you’re taking them now anyways (Protect, Swiftcast, Lucid Dreaming and Esuna to name a few—all of these had their own buttons in ARR/HW...and now they still have their own button, it’s just locked behind the cross-role system; nothing changed with regards to number of buttons).

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Two buttons for Samurai that uses Meikyo Shisui for getting quick buffs. Four buttons for a samurai that does not. Three buttons for all tanks. Three buttons for Monk (though it's a bit different way of counting combos). Potentially four buttons for Red Mage, though this would be a little bit more coding (since it would need to check whether the swift cast is triggered as well).

You say that it's not worth it...but current role actions are result of Square Enix trying to "save space" on hotbars. And so is the removal of skills like Stoneskin, Scourge, that Dragoons skill where they swing on their lance and so on. That's two or three skills saved from being erased with next expansion to make place for new skills.

They removed skills in an effort to simplify jobs because casual players struggled with maintaining DoTs and etc. It had nothing to do with saving space, though that was necessary. As for role actions, that, too, was a means of trying to offer choice and less about button bloat, especially since a good number of those skills were mandatory regardless. And like I said in a previous post, people hate it hence why they're abandoning it next week.

[Darrcyphfeid]

I'm going to guess that most of the people against it don't play on a controller, where of the 8 buttons you have immediate access to, 6 of them are dedicated to executing your combos. Which makes accessing any other buttons really clunky.

I started on PS3, moved to PS4, now play on PC with a controller. Have never had a problem fitting my buttons onto my crossbar with any of the 15 jobs, during any of the 3 eras of the game.

If you think accessing buttons is clunky on controller, you've done goofed with your approach to setting up your bars. Which is the pitfall of having a fully customizable HUD, and ultimately one that single-button combos won't solve. The rest of your stuff will still be clunky until you devise a better approach for your own personal playstyle.

As the person that accidentally kicked this off and derailed the thread: Even if single button combos were an optional feature, it would still cause problems. The primary reason for them inevitably doing this is for button bloat, which means they would consolidate combos and immediately replace them with other, newer buttons to press. This would leave the total number of buttons the same for people opting in with the toggle, but increase them for anyone that's serious about controlling their character and/or that wants to remain engaged.

Even faster paced games can have boring combat if there is little to do other than just spam your rotation. No matter how mechanically interesting a class is, it eventually becomes dull if the encounter itself is little more than a target dummy.

Agreed. Which is why most games don't work on a static rotation for both player and enemy attacks, but this one does. Presumably for ease of balancing, though whether or not that's actually been a success is debatable.

[kikix12]

How am I “ignoring” your comment?

Well, it was skipped. That's being ignored. Though I think you misunderstand something if you think I have what to calm down from. But that's irrelevant.

This still doesn’t address other jobs such as BRD, which I previously outlined prior.

Yes, it doesn't. It doesn't affect any healer, Black Mage or Summoner either, since those classes don't have combos (permanent ones, not random triggers like that of Fire III off of Fire I). You can't consolidate combos if they don't exist after all. But easing up on some classes is better than on none, especially since it's about half of em.

Some other method would need to be thought of for those classes that lack combos...but yeah. That's where I would not expect Square Enix to do anything more than just make higher versions (like Stone X) or remove older skills. They had a chance and implied some skill combinations, yet the only thing related I know of is skill division. Like whatever was the name of the Scholars skill that was divided into Addle and Feint, both of which are unavailable to them at all nowadays...So yes. Depending on Square Enix to bring creative solutions, ones that are not found elsewhere...is like asking for the game to be ruined, as implied.

[Penthea]

Yes, it doesn't. It doesn't affect any healer, Black Mage or Summoner either, since those classes don't have combos (permanent ones, not random triggers like that of Fire III off of Fire I). You can't consolidate combos if they don't exist after all. But easing up on some classes is better than on none, especially since it's about half of em.

This looks good on paper but in reality you'd be creating a huge gap in the amount of brain power needed to do a rotation correctly on some classes versus others. Combo based classes would become stupidly easy to learn because the game chooses many abilities for you, while a priority based rotation would still completely rely on the player for correct execution.

And yes I am aware combo systems have a graphic on ability icons for the next part of the combo, but some people ignore or misunderstand what this means. With the pvp system this particular type of error or misunderstanding would be eliminated from combo-based rotations, thus reducing the minimum skill and understanding requirement to play some classes adequately.

[kikix12]

Combo based classes would become stupidly easy to learn because the game chooses many abilities for you, while a priority based rotation would still completely rely on the player for correct execution.

I'm sorry, but the only difference it does is prevent miss-clicks. If a person doesn't know about combo effects, then it means one of two things. They didn't read the tooltips, or they can't read the tooltips. In both cases we have players that will be equally sucky with and without this consolidation. Only the random miss-clicks will be affected, which occurs rarely enough for it to be of little relevance in the bigger picture.

Skills like Ring of Thorns and Phlebotimze (and most of the DoTs previous jobs had) were removed to simplify jobs and make them easier.

And how exactly removing a combo AoE that only deals damage makes a job easier?! I won't be talking about the DoT's (or the parry/evasion skills), but Ring of Thorns, Grenado Shot, Wide Shot, old Feint, Mercy Stroke, Spur and both Stoneskin's had no reason to be removed except to free button slots. They were less complicated than most of the new skills and systems by far.

I do not try to argue against them removing some skills to dumb down the classes. But you are trying to argue against them removing some skills simply to make space for new ones, when they DID that.

[Darrcyphfeid]

And how exactly removing a combo AoE that only deals damage makes a job easier?!

Dunno, you're gonna have to ask the geniuses that came up with the idea. Also ask them why we even have things like Heavy Thrust still when the duration has been skyrocketed and the buff potency nerfed to, and I'm paraphrasing, "a point where players aren't harshly punished for not keeping the buff active." Just remove it at that point, y'know?

I still miss the single button, non-combo DoTs. WTB Phlebotomize.

Edit: Also, their excuse for removing the non-combo DoTs was that players weren't sure when to use them and kept forgetting to reapply them. Or something to that effect.