Its ffxiv combat really so slow and boring?

[MomomiMomi]

May I ask why you have thus far not responded to my concerns? I'm honestly curious as to your thoughts. To summarize so you don't have to read through previous posts:

(1) I do not think any such feature can be truly considered optional, as it will offer more stable performance for the majority of players (I know I'd feel quite self-conscious for mis-clicking a combo if the option were available to never miss);
(2) I think such a system, if active, would lessen my engagement with my job, my sense of control of my character, and my immersion in combat.

These twin concerns effectively mean that your optional "QoL" change would harm my in-game experience every time I participated in group combat. Presumably this isn't the outcome you're expecting or seeking, so I'm curious as to your reasoning for why this wouldn't happen.

Didn't respond earlier because I had reached posting limit, and then I was mostly just trying not to re-engage the topic. As mentioned earlier, it's a derail. Just wanted to explain to Miste that they had misunderstood what I meant back there, then noticed they had edited their post to add something else. But I'll answer the best I can.

I don't think I can tell you that it wouldn't happen because it sounds like a personal problem. If you don't want to do something, you just don't do it. That's about self-control. If you don't have the self-control to pick something because it's more fun than the alternative, then you'd likely suffer due to it. I understand the concern, though; I'm not trying to dismiss it. I think it's actually a valid concern.

[Kirsten_Rev]

I don't think I can tell you that it wouldn't happen because it sounds like a personal problem. If you don't want to do something, you just don't do it. That's about self-control. If you don't have the self-control to pick something because it's more fun than the alternative, then you'd likely suffer due to it. I understand the concern, though; I'm not trying to dismiss it. I think it's actually a valid concern.

A couple of things.

Firstly, I don't think it's a personal problem. Let's take the idea to its logical extreme, and say that SE went so far as to give us the ability to completely automate actions via programmatic macros, and also released scripts for every job to achieve optimal DPS. Alongside this effort, they release a statement informing players that the system is completely optional, and that we don't have to use it if we don't want to. But... the thing is, that's sort of hogwash. When you join a four-person dungeon and the other three people are giving you sideways glances because you're sucking it up compared to them, and that it's something you could fix with the press of a button? Well, the choice is no longer neutral at that point. Your proposal is clearly not as black and white, but I don't think you've effectively made the case that this system wouldn't significantly improve player performance - and without that assurance, it's not something that can be made truly optional, in my estimation.

In other words, the whole self-control argument works fine for single-player games, but notsomuch for multiplayer titles - at least not when one is grouped in cooperative teams.

Secondly, I think that this actually does relate somewhat to the OP. We've meandered about a good bit in the thread, and this idea did indeed turn into a derail, but it's brought to light the fact that there are a lot of different opinions on the combat system, and SE has to find a middle ground that's consistent for all players (your idea is a fun hypothetical, but we both know it'd never be optional). I think that suggests that perhaps the combat is about right. I personally maintain that it's quite boring (no opinion either way on the speed), but it's been interesting to read opposing views, and shift my thinking accordingly.

Edit / Aside: I'd actually be a lot more interested in your idea if it did do more to gimp the full effectiveness of various combos (for example, by not allowing oGCD weaving). I think there's an argument to be made for a 'training wheels' sort of mode that allows anyone to hit a certain level of performance in a relatively mindless fashion, but that also restricts them from ever achieving higher levels of performance.

This could be useful even for good players who, for instance, are learning a new fight, and wanting to focus more on mechanic dodging than on combo maintenance. Or, for people who are returning after a long break, and needing some time to absorb things again before tackling combos at level cap. It would also be useful for people who are just solo'ing trash monsters and wanting to watch Netflix more easily.

[Darrcyphfeid]

I don't think this is a fair thing to say.

I mean, maybe? But that's seriously the only answer to their problem. If you have issues doing basic controller inputs in a timely manner, and it's not because of a physical disability, then the only solutions are to practice more or to use a different control scheme. The latter of which would also probably involve some level of practice.

Just curious, why did you show less than 32 job actions when they said "anything more than 32 is a pain to use"?

They said only the base 16 are viable for combos. DRG is my main, so those are the first pictures available in my folder and, as shown, have combo actions on the expanded crossbar.

I can show the setup I have for any of the 15 jobs, though I don't remember how many I bothered reconfiguring after obtaining their lv70 action. I do know that a couple have empty spaces as-is and none of them have issues fitting onto two tabs barring seldom/never used buttons though. Like moving the LB button on tanks and healers into Set3 (L2+Triangle), whereas on every DPS job it's in the same spot shown in the DRG picture.

[KaldeaSahaline]

Especially since the slower combat is actually something that many people LIKE, and not because of PING. If my PING was 30-50, I'd enjoy it EVEN MORE. That's why I actually like turn-based games which are even "slower".

There are also a lot of people who think the combat could be faster too.

Regarding the other bits, we'll agree to disagree. It's clear I'm not reaching you, and I simply don't agree that the pros outweigh the cons of a built in buffer to make the game more playable for fringe playerbases.

Appreciate the discussion though.

Jobs should interact with each other more for some sort of bonus. As it stands right now, "teamwork" is just being individually good at the job you are doing whilst in a group. However, none of our jobs are linked by any sort of system in combat that could facilitate teamwork.

This isn't true at the highest levels where the META has a clear advantage in group synergy (due to flat throughput party buffs).

I would actual relish the game be more based on individual performance rather than what job I got lucky to be grouped with.

There definitely needs to be synergy, but I'd feel much safer if it was based on utility and not throughput.

Well, ordinary heroic raidfinder dungeons in Wow, you can literally roll your face on the keyboard, and not do any of the few mechanics, and still clear the dungeon.

But how is that any different from FF14? You can literally join nearly any end game dungeon and flounder your way through it successfully by simply mashing 1 skill over and over. Most FF14 dungeons don't even need a healer they're so trivial.

Those bosses through the portals in Legion, that give you a chance for legendary gear? Some ordinary Hunt bosses have more mechanics involved.

Any single enemy or piece of content could drop legendaries in Legion. Hunt bosses are identical in complexity/depth compared to world bosses. They're both shallow and awful IMO.

Mythic keystones, yes you had to do the mechanics in them, but they are still not nearly as punishing. Back in the day the Typhon trial was harder, simply due to people not doing the mechanics of the fight.

What? Mythic+ is incredibly punishing if you're doing ilvl appropriate keys. Typhon was easy. Try doing high level keys with people who ignore mechanics. It doesn't end well.

And back when I was raiding in MoP, it felt like there was honestly a less mechanics you had to do, and a lot less one-shots.

And the large raid finder raids? Extremely hard to wipe the whole party from not doing mechs, vs FFXIV.

But hey, that's just my opinion on how they feel mechanic-wise.

It's 100% cool that you feel that way and have that opinion, but you do need to accept that it is mired in some bias and misinformation, because FF14 suffers from the same exact issues, to an even larger degree.

Now, 120 Ret Paladin:

1). Judgment.
2). Blade of Justice.
3). Templar's Verdict.
4). Crusader Strike.
5). Crusader Strike.
6). Hopefully you either got a Crusader Strike proc that lets you TV at 2HoPo, or you got Art of War which reset your Blade of Justice

And..... that's it.

Build 3 HoPo, use TV or Divine Storm.

Repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. That's literally all you do.

Don't believe me?

As a career Ret with numerous top logs in my more serious days, you're being incredibly diminutive here.

There's a lot of nuance hidden in there that you're not accounting for. Managing HoPo without overcapping or letting CS sit at 2 charges, rolling FV buff, etc.

I'm not saying it's some deep hard to play class, because it isn't, but there is more depth to it than you're accounting for, especially considering it's paired with more robust encounter design.

Shifting combos to work via multiple presses of a single button would be a mistake. The fundamental issue I have with the idea is that it would reduce my sense of control over my character. There should be nothing 'artificially predicted' about my actions, which condensing combos to a 111 sort of format (as opposed to a 123).

Do you believe that there is a difference between pushing 1-1-1 or 1-2-3 mechanically?

While I do agree that 1-1-1 would be more boring, that's a symptom of the shallow design of the combo system, not the chosen hotkey method.

If it were up to me, I'd honestly revamp the combo system entirely to be more engaging/complex, or I'd simplify it entirely (a la PVP) and bump up the oGCD system in its stead. one or the other, as I'm not confident the playerbase could handle both simultaneously.

But this idea that 1-2-3 is different than 1-1-1 is pretty silly honestly.

[Kewitt]

Agree to disagree.

At 15 with basicly 3 action needed yes it is slow..
At 70 with all the OGC and remember we will have 5 extra 4.4...

I would say for people that want a faster paced game.... there are other games out there. I like the current pace.
I played FFXI and WOW. So I've had slower and faster, and well FFXIV seem a nice pace between running around like a fool to avoid AOE and keeping uptime on DPS... there is enough to do.

I would sooner have more use of the rarely used abilities vs faster combo Also changing the GC would mean all mobs would need to be reworked which isn't happening anytime soon.. So the point of this discussion is lost on me.

[HyoMinPark]

But this idea that 1-2-3 is different than 1-1-1 is pretty silly honestly.

I have to disagree; it’s different on a psychological level. I enjoy having to move my thumbs all over my controller; it keeps me engaged in combat even if it’s something like a dungeon where things are extremely simple. Pressing 1-1-1-1 until my thumb falls off is not engaging.

When I’m caught in a situation where I’m spamming the same button over and over again—we’ll use Pagos on a healer as an example: Aero III > Aero II > Stone IV > Stone IV > Stone IV > ad nauseam—I start to check out mentally. And I stop paying attention to the combat at hand, especially if it’s something mind-numbing that already required minimal thought. The PvP combo system in PvE would have the same effect on me, as well as take away the ability I currently have on my main (BRD) to manipulate my rotation in situations where fights call for it.

The only way I would take this system (begrudgingly at that) would be if they allowed for customization in the combos (so I could have ones or create ones for instances where I am manipulating songs from the normal Minuet > Mage’s > Army’s), and if they gave me enough oGCDs to weave. However, considering so many were removed with SB (along with DoTs to upkeep) in order to simply the jobs, I doubt that this would be the case.

[MomomiMomi]

Edit / Aside: I'd actually be a lot more interested in your idea if it did do more to gimp the full effectiveness of various combos (for example, by not allowing oGCD weaving). I think there's an argument to be made for a 'training wheels' sort of mode that allows anyone to hit a certain level of performance in a relatively mindless fashion, but that also restricts them from ever achieving higher levels of performance.

We already have this. They're called macros.

For the rest of your post, I think you're overestimating any performance increase from changing 1-2-3 to 1-1-1. You still have to press the buttons, and you still have to press oGCDs in between them. You can still make mistakes by pressing the wrong combo button when starting a new combo; I even do this myself once in a while in PvP.

Anyway, the whole thing isn't a huge deal to me as long as I stick to certain jobs. I simply don't play the jobs I find unfun to play because they have too many redundant abilities/buttons. I don't have too much trouble sticking to only a few jobs, or even just one if I had to.

[KaldeaSahaline]

I have to disagree; it’s different on a psychological level. I enjoy having to move my thumbs all over my controller; it keeps me engaged in combat even if it’s something like a dungeon where things are extremely simple. Pressing 1-1-1-1 until my thumb falls off is not engaging.

When I’m caught in a situation where I’m spamming the same button over and over again—we’ll use Pagos on a healer as an example: Aero III > Aero II > Stone IV > Stone IV > Stone IV > ad nauseam—I start to check out mentally. And I stop paying attention to the combat at hand, especially if it’s something mind-numbing that already required minimal thought. The PvP combo system in PvE would have the same effect on me, as well as take away the ability I currently have on my main (BRD) to manipulate my rotation in situations where fights call for it.

The only way I would take this system (begrudgingly at that) would be if they allowed for customization in the combos (so I could have ones or create ones for instances where I am manipulating songs from the normal Minuet > Mage’s > Army’s), and if they gave me enough oGCDs to weave. However, considering so many were removed with SB (along with DoTs to upkeep) in order to simply the jobs, I doubt that this would be the case.

Did you read the 2 above sentences from the one you quoted? I covered that it would be more boring, but that it was a symptom of the shallow combo system rather than the hotkey method. I even offered 2 different suggestions for changes.

[HyoMinPark]

Did you read the 2 above sentences from the one you quoted? I covered that it would be more boring, but that it was a symptom of the shallow combo system rather than the hotkey method. I even offered 2 different suggestions for changes.

Yes, I did. I’m arguing about how it is different on a psychological level: for me, more movement for my fingers means more engagement in the combat; I feel more engaged. Less movement (akin to hitting 1-1-1 which is physically different from 1-2-3 if we want to get super technical/pendantic) means less engagement; I don’t feel engaged. You’re arguing that claiming there’s a difference “is silly”; I’m arguing that I disagree, because there is a difference: physically (on the technical level) and psychologically.

If you say that the combo system is boring, why advocate for a system that is going to further dumb it down? Not saying that you specifically are, but for the sake of discussion: why advocate for something even more monotonous that what is already present, if you think the combat system is currently boring and/or unengaging, and that this new system could potentially make that glaringly obvious.

I also explained the only way in which I would accept such a system—you would have noticed that one is in line with your additional oGCD suggestion.

Bard does NOT have a combo. We're not talking about player-decided combos. We're talking about the actual combos that have:
"Combo: X Potency" or "Combo: Add X effect."

Bard...does...not...have...a...combo.

I’m aware. No need to enunciate each word. Calm down, please.

The premise is that, more than likely, the developers would just copy the systems over from PvP into PvE rather than design from the ground up, especially if there were new jobs that they had to consider as well. Considering this, it is very much possible that they would force the current PvP combos onto a job that has no combo, or lump all of BRD’s songs into one button for this whole “save button space” that you are advocating for. That would take away my ability to freely manipulate songs, which is something that you do.

So use a different argument. One that is not entirely subjective. Or if your only argument is either subjective or outright wrong (because it's not related to what was suggested)...then I guess, agree to disagree?!

I didn’t know I needed your approval for which arguments I can and cannot use. Why don’t you just agree to disagree with me—as you are advocating—instead of getting all heated? It’s quite clear we don’t see eye to eye, and continuing this back-and-forth is nothing more than a waste of daily post counts reiterating the same thing over and over again, and with no new development in a conversation that is already a tangent. It’s why I didn’t respond to your previous posts to me (inb4 I’m accused of “ignoring” you again).

Personally I react the exact same way to 1-2-3 or any other repetitive combination. Using keyboard for the past twenty years without looking at it, I don't even notice a difference between which finger I use for what button, so three consecutive buttons are one and the same to me.

You say not to use subjective arguments... but here you are using one yourself.

Player experience in the game is a subjective measure. Why gamble at making it boring for players just to save hotbars space on very few jobs (and only a couple buttons at that)? It’s generally a good idea to not fix something that isn’t broken, because it usually just leads to problems later on—one being “we didn’t want this change anyways, so why is it even here”.

[kikix12]

The PvP combo system in PvE would have the same effect on me, as well as take away the ability I currently have on my main (BRD) to manipulate my rotation in situations where fights call for it.

Bard does NOT have a combo. We're not talking about player-decided combos. We're talking about the actual combos that have:
"Combo: X Potency" or "Combo: Add X effect."

Bard...does...not...have...a...combo. You are disagreeing with something that is literally only in your head. No one is saying to bring PvP skills into PvE. We're talking entirely about PvE. And in PvE bard would be completely unaffected.

You having issues with pushing only one button instead of three, even if for the same effect?! Well, that's your opinion. It's nothing to agree or disagree with. Personally I react the exact same way to 1-2-3 or any other repetitive combination. Using keyboard for the past twenty years without looking at it, I don't even notice a difference between which finger I use for what button, so three consecutive buttons are one and the same to me.
So use a different argument. One that is not entirely subjective. Or if your only argument is either subjective or outright wrong (because it's not related to what was suggested)...then I guess, agree to disagree?!