Its ffxiv combat really so slow and boring?

[MomomiMomi]

Okay, and your solution to SAM with regards to Meikyo Shisui? How do you propose that working under the influence of a buff that gets rid of combos to allow you to apply buffs earlier or to get Sens earlier outside of full combos?

Place the mid-combo button where you would normally place your buffs. You'd still have access to it, but don't need it in your easy to access buttons.

[HyoMinPark]

Place the mid-combo button where you would normally place your buffs. You'd still have access to it, but don't need it in your easy to access buttons.

But the skill consolidation would literally turn the 1-2-3 4-5-6 7-8 combo that SAM has into 1-1-1 2-2-2 3-3, because that’s what PvP does: base combos are reduced into single-button spam as opposed to 3 buttons.

It wouldn’t allow for something like the 3-Sen opener, in which you hit Meikyo Shisui > Yukikaze (“8”) > Hagakure (oGCD) > Guren (oGCD) > Gekko (“6”) > Kaiten > Higanbana > Gekko (“6”). You can’t do that if the combos are all consolidated into 1-1-1 or 2-2-2 and require you to cycle through them beforehand to reach the skill you need. Yukikaze and Gekko are combo finishers, but the logic would still apply if one wanted to use it for Shifu (“2”) or Jinpu (“5”): they aren’t readily accessible without first cycling through to get to them.

[kikix12]

It wouldn’t allow for something like the 3-Sen opener, in which you hit Meikyo Shisui > Yukikaze (“8”) > Hagakure (oGCD) > Guren (oGCD) > Gekko (“6”) > Kaiten > Higanbana > Gekko (“6”). You can’t do that if the combos are all consolidated into 1-1-1 or 2-2-2 and require you to cycle through them beforehand to reach the skill you need.

That's wrong. It's a proof of you not understanding what was written beforehand. I said exactly how a proper cycling would work, and what MomomiMomi wrote suggests this is what she has in mind.

Apparently I was ignored back then for the sake of arguing with her, or it was not understood. So I'll write it up all nice and dandy, using samurai as the example.

Samurai have these combos:

Hakaze > Jinpu > Gekko
Hakaze > Shifu > Kasha
Hakaze > Yukikaze

Fuga > Mangetsu
Fuga > Oka

That means a total of 9 buttons.

By consolidating the LOWER skills under the HIGHER skills, we remove the need for lower skills. That's left with only the finishers, so 5 skills. You will have Gekko, Kasha, Yukikaze, Mangetsu and Oka. If you use Meikyo Shisui to quickly stack buffs, you will need to add Jinpu and Shifu for a total of 7 skills. Still two buttons saved.

How does that work?! You put these finishers on the hotbar. You have Hakaze and Fuga and can put them on, but you don't. They are not needed. You push the button for Gekko and the game checks whether its combo effect is triggered. Yes?! It's used. No?! The game checks whether combo effect for Jinpu is triggered. Yes?! It's used. No?! Then game uses Hakaze. Pushed Gekko once, but decided to go for Kasha instead?! Go ahead, Shifu will be used the moment you push it since after pushing Gekko you used Hakaze, triggering combo effect for Shifu as well. Went with Shifu but want to get Gekko after all?! Push Gekko and Hakaze will be used since Shifu doesn't combo into Jinpu or Gekko.
The moment you use Meikyo Shisui, the combo effects for ALL of the finishers are triggered, so the moment you push Gekko, Kasha, Yukikaze, Mangetsu or Oka they are used, because the game sees the combo triggered. It doesn't need to start from Hakaze/Fuga because the combo is NOT dependent on what you pushed last (this is true for abilities as well, so the combo will NOT reset if you use an ability in the middle), but on whether the combo effect is triggered.

The only time when this combo method would have hiccups is with combos that have multiple foundations for the same effect. For example skills Strike and Pound would be combo starters and skill Beat Up would trigger as a combo from either of them. Like get an effect from Strike or get potency from Pound. At that point this method would not work. However, that method is NOT used currently.


In all cases, you could still put all of the skills on your hot bars if you want. Though unless there's a "turn off consolidated combos" a miss-click would still work up like that, possibly "fixing" an error.

[MoroMurasaki]

That's wrong.

So it saves two buttons.

I just don't think that's worth it.

If it isn't broken don't fix it. Never truer than it is for SE.

[kikix12]

So it saves two buttons.

I just don't think that's worth it.

If it isn't broken don't fix it. Never truer than it is for SE.

Two buttons for Samurai that uses Meikyo Shisui for getting quick buffs. Four buttons for a samurai that does not. Three buttons for all tanks. Three buttons for Monk (though it's a bit different way of counting combos). Potentially four buttons for Red Mage, though this would be a little bit more coding (since it would need to check whether the swift cast is triggered as well).

You say that it's not worth it...but current role actions are result of Square Enix trying to "save space" on hotbars. And so is the removal of skills like Stoneskin, Scourge, that Dragoons skill where they swing on their lance and so on. That's two or three skills saved from being erased with next expansion to make place for new skills.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Two buttons for Samurai that uses Meikyo Shisui for getting quick buffs. Four buttons for a samurai that does not. Three buttons for all tanks. Three buttons for Monk (though it's a bit different way of counting combos). Potentially four buttons for Red Mage, though this would be a little bit more coding (since it would need to check whether the swift cast is triggered as well).

You say that it's not worth it...but current role actions are result of Square Enix trying to "save space" on hotbars. And so is the removal of skills like Stoneskin, Scourge, that Dragoons skill where they swing on their lance and so on. That's two or three skills saved from being erased with next expansion to make place for new skills.

They removed skills in an effort to simplify jobs because casual players struggled with maintaining DoTs and etc. It had nothing to do with saving space, though that was necessary. As for role actions, that, too, was a means of trying to offer choice and less about button bloat, especially since a good number of those skills were mandatory regardless. And like I said in a previous post, people hate it hence why they're abandoning it next week.

[HyoMinPark]

That's wrong. It's a proof of you not understanding what was written beforehand. I said exactly how a proper cycling would work, and what MomomiMomi wrote suggests this is what she has in mind.

Apparently I was ignored back then for the sake of arguing with her, or it was not understood. So I'll write it up all nice and dandy, using samurai as the example.

How am I “ignoring” your comment? I didn’t even see it because this conversation was evolving too fast. I came in to talk about Momodi’s comment about controllers not having enough space, and it evolved to this. Calm down, please.



This still doesn’t address other jobs such as BRD, which I previously outlined prior. It’s PvP rotation is nothing like PvE, and unless they allow for customization of things like song orders (and where I can use my oGCDs like Bloodletter and Barrage), it messes with having to alternate songs, because there are situations where you do deviate from the standard rotation.

You say that it's not worth it...but current role actions are result of Square Enix trying to "save space" on hotbars. And so is the removal of skills like Stoneskin, Scourge, that Dragoons skill where they swing on their lance and so on. That's two or three skills saved from being erased with next expansion to make place for new skills.

Skills like Ring of Thorns and Phlebotimze (and most of the DoTs previous jobs had) were removed to simplify jobs and make them easier. Not because of button bloat. Some of the skills they placed in the role actions have no effect on the amount of buttons you had previously, because you’re taking them now anyways (Protect, Swiftcast, Lucid Dreaming and Esuna to name a few—all of these had their own buttons in ARR/HW...and now they still have their own button, it’s just locked behind the cross-role system; nothing changed with regards to number of buttons).

[kikix12]

How am I “ignoring” your comment?

Well, it was skipped. That's being ignored. Though I think you misunderstand something if you think I have what to calm down from. But that's irrelevant.

This still doesn’t address other jobs such as BRD, which I previously outlined prior.

Yes, it doesn't. It doesn't affect any healer, Black Mage or Summoner either, since those classes don't have combos (permanent ones, not random triggers like that of Fire III off of Fire I). You can't consolidate combos if they don't exist after all. But easing up on some classes is better than on none, especially since it's about half of em.

Some other method would need to be thought of for those classes that lack combos...but yeah. That's where I would not expect Square Enix to do anything more than just make higher versions (like Stone X) or remove older skills. They had a chance and implied some skill combinations, yet the only thing related I know of is skill division. Like whatever was the name of the Scholars skill that was divided into Addle and Feint, both of which are unavailable to them at all nowadays...So yes. Depending on Square Enix to bring creative solutions, ones that are not found elsewhere...is like asking for the game to be ruined, as implied.

[Penthea]

Yes, it doesn't. It doesn't affect any healer, Black Mage or Summoner either, since those classes don't have combos (permanent ones, not random triggers like that of Fire III off of Fire I). You can't consolidate combos if they don't exist after all. But easing up on some classes is better than on none, especially since it's about half of em.

This looks good on paper but in reality you'd be creating a huge gap in the amount of brain power needed to do a rotation correctly on some classes versus others. Combo based classes would become stupidly easy to learn because the game chooses many abilities for you, while a priority based rotation would still completely rely on the player for correct execution.

And yes I am aware combo systems have a graphic on ability icons for the next part of the combo, but some people ignore or misunderstand what this means. With the pvp system this particular type of error or misunderstanding would be eliminated from combo-based rotations, thus reducing the minimum skill and understanding requirement to play some classes adequately.

[kikix12]

Combo based classes would become stupidly easy to learn because the game chooses many abilities for you, while a priority based rotation would still completely rely on the player for correct execution.

I'm sorry, but the only difference it does is prevent miss-clicks. If a person doesn't know about combo effects, then it means one of two things. They didn't read the tooltips, or they can't read the tooltips. In both cases we have players that will be equally sucky with and without this consolidation. Only the random miss-clicks will be affected, which occurs rarely enough for it to be of little relevance in the bigger picture.

Skills like Ring of Thorns and Phlebotimze (and most of the DoTs previous jobs had) were removed to simplify jobs and make them easier.

And how exactly removing a combo AoE that only deals damage makes a job easier?! I won't be talking about the DoT's (or the parry/evasion skills), but Ring of Thorns, Grenado Shot, Wide Shot, old Feint, Mercy Stroke, Spur and both Stoneskin's had no reason to be removed except to free button slots. They were less complicated than most of the new skills and systems by far.

I do not try to argue against them removing some skills to dumb down the classes. But you are trying to argue against them removing some skills simply to make space for new ones, when they DID that.