Weekly Savage Dungeon

[MomomiMomi]

It doesn't. WoW already tried that. It doesn't matter if you do it progressively or not - at any difficulty point, there's someone who's gonna fall off, either because they simply hit their skill cap, or because they no longer find it fun and go play sth else. If it was any other way, we could slowly make the entire playerbase beyond Ultimate-ready just by taking perpetual baby steps upward. Good luck trying.

Now you're just talking business. I'm not. I'm talking about the game-player experience. Losing a player is perfectly acceptable from my perspective. Obviously, it's not something that the business wants.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

So you like vote abandons and doing normal dungeons with your static because duty findering it is a crap shoot? Because that's what happens when you make basic content markedly harder. Did you like rath ex learning parties? That's what you are going to get with a hard dungeon. So every time you level, you are going to have a rath ex experience, i.e. it taking forever to fill, it disbanding due to wipes a lot, and maybe clearing after a full lockout if lucky.

I think you guys assume that hard means "still can beat in a single pull, but i don't fall asleep doing it." The idea that this content might actually be difficult to many people slips by you.

You mean having dungeons where I have to turn my brain on and can't simply pull the entire room while the DPS spam AoE abilities? Yes. I will gladly take increased failure rates over what we have now. Of course, as per usual, you argue in extremes. Progressive difficulty doesn't mean everything becomes unbearable challenging, but simply scales upwards. A direct equivalent would be campaign modes in single player games where you go from Easy to Normal. If such a curve existed, you aren't going to a constant string of disbands because people will actually have to put forth an effort. When nothing challenges, people get complacent. The reason you see so many mess up Tsukiyomi normal is due to how laughably easy the game between the end of Stormblood up to 4.3. Then out of nowhere, you have an abrupt spike that people aren't expecting. That is FFXIV's issue in a nutshell. Constant, random, spikes of difficulty in lieu of a developed curve.

That's precisely what hard means. Why is that such a bad thing? Need I reiterate for probably the thousandth time now The Vault is a good example of difficulty done well. It isn't Rathalos EX level but it's not something you can sleep through. What a novel concept. If anyone finds Swallow's Compass hard, they are either woefully undergeared or haven't bothered to learn how to play the game. Players like this shouldn't be rewarded.

People were vote abandoning in swarms when Shinryu first came out and for a good amount of time afterward. I ran Trial Roulette every day and constantly saw it. I helped a lot of newbies through it, but not everyone is going to stick around like me. The only thing that scaling up the MSQ is going to do is drive off those who are only in the game for the MSQ. The optional content is there for the challenge.

As for the OP, I think it's a good idea. I wouldn't give it unique drop rewards, but a higher tomestone reward like MSQ Roulette or Alliance Roulette have would be a good incentive to run it.

Because the game is piss easy until Shinryu shows up. As I said, when you have sudden difficulty spikes like that, it will create a wall for people who weren't anticipating such a jump. On the other hand, if content grew progressively harder, Shinryu would feel like a natural step. Is it too much to ask casual content actually require two healers?

Even casual players are asking for more. We lost a dungeon because the developers outright admitted people have been finding them boring.

It doesn't. WoW already tried that. It doesn't matter if you do it progressively or not - at any difficulty point, there's someone who's gonna fall off, either because they simply hit their skill cap, or because they no longer find it fun and go play sth else. If it was any other way, we could slowly make the entire playerbase beyond Ultimate-ready just by taking perpetual baby steps upward. Good luck trying.

There needs to be a balance. If I recall, WoW swung too hard in the opposite direction which will turn just as many people off as making everything super easy. We've seen that first hand.

[RiyahArp]

Damage would have to be limited to what 1 tank/1 healer can handle, and mechanics could only be so "deep". Though I do think there are a number of mechanics that would work with 4 people as they do with 8.

They could, idk though. I mean, what would this solve that say doubling the amount of savage fights wouldn't? Maybe they should float up one as a trial for testing, as long as it isn't mandatory.

A direct equivalent would be campaign modes in single player games where you go from Easy to Normal. If such a curve existed, you aren't going to a constant string of disbands because people will actually have to put forth an effort.

..actually people put down games when the effort is too much. That's kind of why easy mode exists now, i think Deus EX Mankind Divided calls theirs "tell me a story," and easy modes specifically are for people who don't want that in games. And there's actually a decent amount of people who use them. Momo had the same argument, assuming that constantly progressing difficulty makes for a fun experience, but a lot of people actually put games down if the difficulty spikes enough or progresses enough. You can't really assume everyone will keep traveling down the road, because people have different requirements and needs.

[Dualgunner]

i'm just being snarky about the tendency to say that everything is easy. You know it gets said on forums a lot. "Why can't people skip soar? All you have to do is a normal opener." etc.

Funny that you're using such a dated meme to make reference to a phenomenon that's apparently "getting said on the forums a lot."

[MoroMurasaki]

So you like vote abandons and doing normal dungeons with your static because duty findering it is a crap shoot? Because that's what happens when you make basic content markedly harder. Did you like rath ex learning parties? That's what you are going to get with a hard dungeon. So every time you level, you are going to have a rath ex experience, i.e. it taking forever to fill, it disbanding due to wipes a lot, and maybe clearing after a full lockout if lucky.

I think you guys assume that hard means "still can beat in a single pull, but i don't fall asleep doing it." The idea that this content might actually be difficult to many people slips by you.

Or, and hear me out here, they could make casual content incrimentally more difficult instead of going from 0 to 120 in a single instance.

I personally wouldn't mind some wipes in casual content. I see them now even with the abysmal state of things because there are some players out there that are just really, really bad. Those people who literally do not care will likely remain that bad. Its a bell curve though - most sit in the middle without knowing it.

I know that you're a competent player. I would bet that most instances you're in could handle more difficulty without approaching the threshold for a wipe and I think you know that as well.

This constant discussion about increasing the difficulty in casual content is really just about what we all see as the greater good. I think I can speak for a lot of the people who tend to have this debate with you when I say that I genuinely believe the potential gains in average player skill as well as the 'fun level' (arbitrary as that may be) of having more to do than spam Holy/Stone IV are worth the occasional wipe or even disband that might come with reasonable increases to content difficulty.

I don't expect you to change your mind but I wish you would consider the idea of small increases in difficulty over time, if you honestly look at it with an open mind I don't think you can poke any holes in it as a suggestion. No one is saying every leveling dungeon should be Shinryu on patch day but if things at level cap hit a bit harder or a bit faster to encourage at least some sense of urgency I don't think it would spell doom for even the most casual of players.

[RiyahArp]

Funny that you're using such a dated meme to make reference to a phenomenon that's apparently "getting said on the forums a lot."

It was when it is relevant. People were saying "oh, Tsuku/shin is easy, its all mechanics you've seen before!" if you want a more current one. I do notice on forums the default seems to be "stuff is too easy" rather than otherwise, because people ironically are modest about their own skill and think everyone can do anything if they just put their mind to it..

I know that you're a competent player. I would bet that most instances you're in could handle more difficulty without approaching the threshold for a wipe and I think you know that as well.

Thank you for saying that. I don't think it would still be fun. I would not play any of my weaker jobs in that kind of content. If there is decent risk and urgency (i.e. you dont one-shot it at launch) I wouldn't be using something like MCH or BLM, jobs where it would be a burden to do. Like I don't tank in 24 mans for that reason, and I dislike tanking in dungeons too. The easiness lets me try jobs I wouldn't ordinarily try. Otherwise I'm just picking my couple of strongest jobs.

[whiskeybravo]

They could, idk though. I mean, what would this solve that say doubling the amount of savage fights wouldn't? Maybe they should float up one as a trial for testing, as long as it isn't mandatory.

I wasn't really thinking of it as anything mandatory, just an extra weekly challenge to throw into the mix for those who'd be interested. Doubling the amount of savage fights would indeed add more challenging content, but I think that's a bit much for the purpose of this suggestion. You can already spend an ungodly amount of time trying to clear the savage turns each week, I wouldn't necessarily want to "double" the time spent raiding.

The other thing is like, until the raids are unlocked you are pretty much tied to raiding with your static group. I certainly have, over the years, wanted to "raid" people who are in my FC, but also they're in their own static, so it's impossible to really ever raid with them unless we happen to be progging the same content when the main group isn't. So having a separate challenge like this might do some good towards strengthening those types of bonds with your FC and LS mates

[MomomiMomi]

It was when it is relevant. People were saying "oh, Tsuku/shin is easy, its all mechanics you've seen before!" if you want a more current one. I do notice on forums the default seems to be "stuff is too easy" rather than otherwise, because people ironically are modest about their own skill and think everyone can do anything if they just put their mind to it..

I actually find all the 24 alliance stuff to be moderately challenging for everything after (not including) Void Ark.

Maybe we should start using different terms. There's "easy" and then there's "faceroll." That's what our dungeons are, faceroll, and have been since pretty much ever. You could probably clear the majority of our dungeon content without ever using any abilities at all, just auto-attacks. That's the kind of content that I have a problem with.

Savage/Extreme/Ultimate content is on a different level. Those require you to know you how to play your job well, optimal rotations, good reaction times, and team communication. I don't think we need to go that far for the majority of content.

What I do think is that the majority of players can reach the middle tier of content if the devs would simply require it of them, and that's where I believe the majority of content should build up towards and then probably stay at about that difficulty level.

[MoroMurasaki]

It was when it is relevant. People were saying "oh, Tsuku/shin is easy, its all mechanics you've seen before!" if you want a more current one. I do notice on forums the default seems to be "stuff is too easy" rather than otherwise, because people ironically are modest about their own skill and think everyone can do anything if they just put their mind to it..



Thank you for saying that. I don't think it would still be fun. I would not play any of my weaker jobs in that kind of content. If there is decent risk and urgency (i.e. you dont one-shot it at launch) I wouldn't be using something like MCH or BLM, jobs where it would be a burden to do. Like I don't tank in 24 mans for that reason, and I dislike tanking in dungeons too. The easiness lets me try jobs I wouldn't ordinarily try. Otherwise I'm just picking my couple of strongest jobs.

Almost everyone has a level of difficulty at which they narrow the scope of jobs they'll use to what they're comfortable with, I think that's normal. That place is still relative to the content you're used to doing though.

I didn't do Savage at the start of SB and didn't even venture into EX for quite a bit. When I did I would only go on WHM. Other than leveling new classes I would only play WHM. I stepped into EX on WHM and started trying some DPS in Rabanastre to shake things up. At this point I've cleared o8s (omg so thankful for my group) and my 'comfy zone' for playing things other than WHM/RDM has expanded from virtually nothing to me tanking Ridorana. I am an awful tank.

I know not everyone wants to raid or even do EX trials and that's totally fine but I think you would be surprised what completing slightly harder content will do for your confidence as a player in general.

Right now the difficulty spikes are absolutely massive (normal raids/24man to EX is huge and EX to Savage is even worse if you don't count ShinEX) and so jumping up the gap is hard or takes good friends to offer a hand. I was lucky to have a supportive FC with some good players in it and some great friends from the forums who helped me get into some of that stuff. Miste specifically joined a second raid group to help teach me Sigma, she's a peach <3

I'm sorry for the ramble. I guess the tl;dr of all of this is that you don't know what you can do until you try. I'm not special in this, virtually the entire casual playerbase would be capable of these same things in my shoes. Not all want to go that far, that's perfectly fine, but to suggest that we can't move the goalpost just a bit further as the game progresses just doesn't fit in with what I've seen happen as a casual player. Anything that might help teach people that they're capable of advancing seems like a plus to me and I'm sure people would acclimatize as we go so long as we don't suddenly make Expert Roulette into Ultimate. I would hate that too.

[Lunavi]

Yes! BUT it needs good rewards (stuff at current savage gear AT THE SAME PATCH as Savage gear is released, but with lower drop rate or even by an own currency that drop maybe 1 or 10 per run with a piece costing something like x20-x50 times the amount you get per run per piece) and maybe even mount rewards to justify the difficulty. It also needs to NOT be weekly locked as this sort of content exists in WoW as an option to get good gear that is not dependent on having a static group.

If stuff like this does not have good rewards behind it people will run it once and be done with it, which means that even if the content is great it will be dead within a couple of weeks.