When should I drop tank stance?

[Aana]

Pretty sure 100 potency on a DPS and 100 potency on a tank wouldnt be equal, since potency is a modifier.
BUT i also know the difference in damage of weapons and the like arent that far behind anyways. (if behind at all in some cases)

....

But yeah, I agree with the final message though, tanks currently do have the tools needed.
The question is, is it worth lowering the total amount of DPS done to a boss, just because diversion/lucid are too annoying to use/watch?
In casual content, its like 1% damage lost, or less, for pressing a button every so often.

You are correct. 100 potency on a DPS/Healer class is generally stronger than 100 pot on a tank because higher int/mnd/dex/str (and a miniscule effect of having something else besides tenacity). Weapon damage is pretty even. SE seems to have finally changed all weapons to be the same damage (wasnt always the case). According to xivdb every 375 weapon has 105 phy attack now for example (i'll check in game though tonight as I didnt even know that changed). That said, tanks have had their enmity buffed to compensate. Sure, rdm 1000 potency is worth more than a pld shield lob 1000 potency of threat, but it isnt worth 2x that (1927 threat you get under shield oath lob pull). I forget the exact % as it varies from job to job (traits like Brds passive action damage buff, and each jobs specific multiplier in the main stat formulas), but no job of equal gear can pull snap aggro harder than a tank pulling in tank stance. (pre 30 no tank stance levels are strange as heck, but if were considering tank stance and enmity combos then were not talking about pre halone/BB wonky levels where flash/OP/Unleash are your best single target aggro tools).

There are VERY specific situations where a DPS can throw out more potency on the 1st 1-2 GCDs before a tank, but most of that is setting up a combo finisher and having buffs up. ie: a Drg puts up heavy thrust buff and prepares a fully buffed life surged full thrust. Mob dies and drg runs up to next mob (probably before the tank via jumps) and drops a mega buffed force crit full thrust and a buncha OGCDs while the tank is just arriving on the scene. But you could flip the tables and say a pld prepares a halone and runs off to the next mob to smash its face with a giant buffed, tank stanced halone/bb/PS. So of course its possible for a dps to out-threat a tank if you give some obscene advantages to the DPS (level, gear, 1st to attack with pregamed buffed combos, etc). But under 'normal' circumstances where a tank draws 1st blood and stands on even footing with equal-ish gear, played with similar-ish skill, then the tank has all the tools in the world to manage it. If you are NOT on even footing (lower level, worse gear) then you have to compensate. If you ARE on even footing on paper and still loosing it, then you need to look at how you play. Its simple deduction. All things equal, tank wins enmity. If all stats are equal then there is something outside of stats that is not equal. That would be you. Thats not an attack, thats how the game works. (advice for anyone). If you are a DPS with the same gear as the same dps next to you and they do more damage, you cant blame anything but you. Tanking threat is no different.

DPS 'should' also be using their enmity tools, but you should never depend on other players while tanking in a pug. In my raid static i can depend on my co-tank to shirk and my DPS/Healers to do enmity things. But in every other situation I rely on myself entirely for enemity management. It's a lot more functional to just deal with it than pulling teeth every time I pug.

Some of the numbers I think you posted werent accurate, but I cant seem to find the original list i saw to back up that claim.

I do wish there was an easily usable patch history function. Some wiki's (like League of Legends for example) have the actions information listed, but at the bottom of the action's page have the patch history for that action all the way back to the beginning of time so you can track every change that has ever happened to it. That would be great for stuff like this so the old people like me playing since 2.0 dont have to try to remember specific numbers. I am pretty confident in the examples i listed, but I'm not infallible. Even if there is a discrepancy in a specific number, the general trend is unchanged. Enmity has been massively buffed over time both by specific action potency, specific action enmity modifiers, tank stance (enmity and damage reduction buffs).

[geekgirl101]

Dropping tank stance sounds silly to me, you risk losing aggro and dropping dead from taking too much damage. I've been put off ever wanting to heal Arum Vale ever again because tanks run in there with sword oath and are taking more damage than can logically be healed for with adds splitting off and hitting me and the dps, and then the tanks blame the healer for not healing them enough! I've burned through every bit of mana spamming nothing but heal spells with people at near death just so a tank could play dps in sword oath. It's not a dps job!

[Hierro]

Dropping tank stance sounds silly to me

Hey buddy, I think you got the wrong door. The casual club's two blocks down.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Trying to base dropping tank stance opinions due to a bad run in Aurum Vale sounds silly to me.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Considering most jobs are missing a huge chunk of their toolkit at level 49 versus 60 or 70, where is becomes easier to tank outside of tank stance. It was either a PLD being unaware, foolish or just ignorant of other party members, especially in AV.

But honestly you can't compare dropping tank stance in AV to dropping tank stance later in the game when more tools are available for everyone. More so in savage raids and ex. trials tanking in DPS stance is pretty much expected after progression.

[Kidria]

So while this thread seems mostly aimed at paladins, I do have a question. I recently dinged 70 on DRK and realized the stance-dance was far more costly on it vs PLD. As PLD I would treat Shield Oath as another "defensive CD" when others are down and drop it when able, but doing so on DRK has proven to be a bit difficult when trying to balance MP use between Grit and TBN, especially when from what I understand, you want Grit on to do Bloodspiller. Is there a method to the madness of balancing stance-dance on DRK, or is it more 'use only for first pull and BS'?

[Garry]

So while this thread seems mostly aimed at paladins, I do have a question. I recently dinged 70 on DRK and realized the stance-dance was far more costly on it vs PLD. As PLD I would treat Shield Oath as another "defensive CD" when others are down and drop it when able, but doing so on DRK has proven to be a bit difficult when trying to balance MP use between Grit and TBN, especially when from what I understand, you want Grit on to do Bloodspiller. Is there a method to the madness of balancing stance-dance on DRK, or is it more 'use only for first pull and BS'?

I think you miss understand the role of bloodspiller in the DRk kit and it's differing effects in grit. Paladin and warriors have built in mechanics that are kind of meant to reduce the pentalties of being in tank stance. For paladins you have procs off block that give you extra free potency for tanking. While warriors get the unchained ability that lets them temperarily turn off the penalty to dps in tank stance.

Drks in this respect just get a buff to potency of blood spiller and increase mana from syphon strike. In this reguard it doesn't make bloodspiller more powerful when going into tank stance, it is only off setting the pentalty tank stance has on your dps some small bit.

For all tanks
As such your tank stance worries should only realisticly be opener aggro on bosses and oh crap mitigation. Some arguements can also be made for using tank stance more librally in dungeons when playing with pugs who can't manage thier aggro or healers that struggle.

[Kidria]

I think you miss understand the role of bloodspiller in the DRk kit and it's differing effects in grit. Paladin and warriors have built in mechanics that are kind of meant to reduce the pentalties of being in tank stance. For paladins you have procs off block that give you extra free potency for tanking. While warriors get the unchained ability that lets them temperarily turn off the penalty to dps in tank stance.

Drks in this respect just get a buff to potency of blood spiller and increase mana from syphon strike. In this reguard it doesn't make bloodspiller more powerful when going into tank stance, it is only off setting the pentalty tank stance has on your dps some small bit.

For all tanks
As such your tank stance worries should only realisticly be opener aggro on bosses and oh crap mitigation. Some arguements can also be made for using tank stance more librally in dungeons when playing with pugs who can't manage thier aggro or healers that struggle.

I appreciate the explanation! I did wonder about it giving the cost of going into Grit and why BS seemed to have a higher pot with Grit on. I honestly didn't even think of the 'offset penalties of tank stance' at all. I admittedly did most of my DRK leveling either with friends (so all the runs were a mess anyway) or HoH/solo duties, so figuring it out in parties has been a bit of a learning curve. It plays different from PLD and that's been my tank class of choice. Maybe I'll try Warrior one day.

[Gemina]

There isn't one concrete answer here anyone can give you. If there is one, you drop tank stance after you have established agro and also have determined you can take the additional punishment without your HP dropping like a 10-ton brick. The thing is, there is a variance of situations that determine how quickly you get to that point. Some of these situations are, but not limited to:

- Your gear vs gear of your party
- ogcd availability
- knowledge of the instance
- size of pull
- available resources (MP/TP/CDs)
- incoming damage (unavoidable AoE, tank busters)
- main tanking or off tanking raids and/or 8-man trials

So as you can see, there is a huge random factor that comes with running content via DF. The green light to drop tank stance is determined only by you under the consensus I provided above. What I can advise you especially as a healer main is don't be afraid to push them a bit. This is even more true in the latter levels when they have so many tools to patch you up quickly.

[vVAstrAVv]

Unless youre war theres not much reason to turn off tank stance on mobs
Plds dps stance only boosts their auto attacks so in mobs its almost worthless
(Although i guess you get that 20% cut back and pld dont need much extra defense so what the heck lol)
And i guess a drk maaaay want blood weapon for the cd reduction or mp (even though syphon strike in tank stance is plenty of mp)
But ive only found it useful in mobs as war if im about to use inner release and don't need steel cyclones heals
And even for war you have unchained basically every 2nd pull making the dance even less necessary

If youre geared well you can turn it off basically every boss fight though

But really
You sound pretty new to tanking
And unless youre like already level 70 dont stress about changing stance
It comes naturally with more experience
And youll most likely pick it up at level 50 as all the former and current endgame dungeons have high as heck gear cealings and if you are geared high enough youll be plenty comfortable in the health department and start switching