When should I drop tank stance?

[Yui_Tenshi]

I usually drop tank stance when party is all okay with it and after 2 enmity combo rotation assuming my gear is at level or better. Or if no one says anything, then I just keep tank stance on until I'm 100% confident I don't need tank stance any more, which usually depends on whether the party used any aggro mitigation. If I don't feel comfortable dropping tank stance, then I don't (except for EX content where tank swaps are required, lol).

[Bright-Flower]

I usually drop tank stance when party is all okay with it and after 2 enmity combo rotation assuming my gear is at level or better. Or if no one says anything, then I just keep tank stance on until I'm 100% confident I don't need tank stance any more, which usually depends on whether the party used any aggro mitigation. If I don't feel comfortable dropping tank stance, then I don't (except for EX content where tank swaps are required, lol).

More or less what I do.

For me, it's about 'do I feel comfortable taking off the security blanket of shield oath with this group?'

I mostly run things with pugs. Generally in dungeons I stay shield oath on trash, then do two enmity combos on bosses then swap over. If a healer has me nervous, I'll stay in shield oath.

In raids it depends on the fight. In Alphascape normal, I'll generally go sword oath on O9, 10 and 12, but in my experience **** is more likely to hit the fan in O11 so I just stay shield oath the whole fight if I'm main tanking. (Except for the transition of course I go sword oath to smack the monitor around.)

This is all once I'm comfortable with the content. If I'm in a dungeon or boss where I don't feel I have a solid grasp on all the mechanics, I'm staying in shield oath the whole time. The way I see it, my priorities are 1. hold enmity, 2. reduce damage taken as much as I reasonably can, 3. deal damage. I'm willing to go sword oath only once I know the mechanics of a fight well enough that I can reliably not screw up and take damage/vulnerability debuffs.

If I were in a static and regularly ran with the same healers I'd probably be more bold with sword oath, but since I mostly end up pugging dungeons and raids, I make sure I know the mechanics before i do it. I haven't done ex trials since Susano and Lakshmi, but it was the same in those. When I was learning the fights I stayed in shield oath, only going sword oath when I was either not currently tanking the boss or once I had the fight emorized and was confident I'd learned the dance well.

[JonBigwood]

As you are asking in a dungeon, I assume it is a dungeon with unknown people that will not be repeated. You may be matched with very good players with top gear who do a lot of DPS and may steal your aggro unless they refrain themselves. Or with undergeared players who don't do their rotations at top efficiency that is unlikely that steal your aggro. At the same time they may be players that don't take avoidable damage with a healer that also does DPS, or players that take avoidable damage, don't know the place need a lot of heals, etc.

From my point of view, as a tank the priority would be not lose aggro, place the mobs and boss well so that the group is protected and they may do the best DPS, and avoid all the damage you can avoid. All while doing your best DPS. If you do all very well except changing to DPS stance and you have great DPS and healer players, all will go fantastic. You might add some extra DPS and icing to the cake if you go to DPS stance optimally but if not, all is fine. If you lose aggro and have to change stance back to tank, or use provoke etc. your rotation will be spoilt and your DPS lower. You might just need to use some aggro combos in DPS stance, though.

If you are matched to some not so top notch players or not so well geared, maybe you don't risk that much losing aggro, you can go to DPS stance but it is nearly sure your better DPS can't overcome the worse DPS of the other players, and some avoidable damage will happen, maybe deaths, occupied healer, etc.

When you know well a place, what is going to happen, where to place the boss and mobs, etc. you can focus much more in stance dancing, taking care of not losing aggro, doing your best DPS. In a boss maybe one aggro combo and then change to DPS stance, maybe wait for some time then change. Always looking that you are not near to lose aggro.

Also when you run a dungeon with people you know, have been with them there before, each time you go, you can fine tune everything bit by bit and make things go better. This includes stance changing. You can try to pass to DPS stance a bit earlier, see what happens and fine tune.

With unknown people in a one time and never repeat situation, it is not that important, just your personal adaptation to different groups, pulling more or less, passing earlier or later to DPS stance, etc.

[Snarky_Sunseeker]

I, for one, am pleased to be seeing more well-reasoned replies in this thread from seasoned tanks. Nicely done!

From my point of view, as a tank the priority would be not lose aggro, place the mobs and boss well so that the group is protected and they may do the best DPS, and avoid all the damage you can avoid. All while doing your best DPS.

One of the best responses I've seen in this thread, and I agree 100%. For me, the cardinal sins of tanking are, in declining order of importance:

1) Dying
2) Losing Enmity
3) Cleaving party members
...
∞) Not doing "Big D*** DPS"

Unless the pace of a dungeon is going abysmally slow due to lackluster DPS (and let's face it, we all want to get it done and over with), I take the "safe road" and stay in Shield most of the time because I just want to clear with no hassles or drama.

[ShinShimon]

Drop it when you feel like you can, and don't feel like you have to (outside of Savage content at least). In DF, where you can't necessarily rely on other people, always keep it up, unless you know the fight and know you can safely pull out of tank stance to do more damage. Even then, don't feel like you're doing something wrong if you never leave tank stance, because it's DF, and if you keep aggro and pull off your damage rotation, you're already doing better than most other players.

As Dark Knight, if I know the battle and if I'm not being lazy, I'll try to go out of Grit to use Blood Weapon when it's off cool-down. But given that I'm lazy 90% of the time in roulettes, I usually just put Grit on at the start and forget about it. You'll be doing a lot of roulettes as a tank because of the instant queues, and 20% breathing room on incoming damage let's you devote less mental effort to whatever dungeon you're running for the 50th time.

[Driskus]

For PLD I usually stay in Shield Oath on trash unless I know those mobs don't do much damage, where I'll swap once I know the DPS won't pull off me. Bosses I tend to do one or two aggro combos (depends on the DPS and if they're using Diversion/Lucid, etc.) and then go into Sword Oath for the rest of the fight unless I need the extra mitigation at some point.

WAR is pretty much built to make stance dancing easy, even on trash. I usually grab everything in Defiance, and if I'm not going to need the extra enmity or self healing, I go straight into Deliverance and spam Decimate after getting Storm's Eye up. Popping both Convalescence & Thrill of Battle helps minimize the difference in HP and healing needed. Large pulls melt before they have a chance to do much damage at all. For most dungeon bosses at 70, Popping Unchained -> Tomahawk -> Equilibrium -> Deliverance -> Eye -> Path -> IR burst has worked for me. Ideally you should never have to use Butcher's Block, though every once in a while you might have to depending on how well the DPS deal with their own enmity. Even before 70 you shouldn't need it all that often.

I'm still leveling DRK (just hit 50 today), so I can't say much other than I tend to stay in Grit for trash for now, and often find myself swapping back and forth on bosses if I start taking a lot of damage and the healer is struggling. I imagine this will change at higher levels when the more-useful abilities come into play. It definitely feels a little bit squishier than PLD and WAR was, though having extra role actions like Reprisal & Leg Sweep available at all times now has helped with that somewhat.

[Bright-Flower]

I, for one, am pleased to be seeing more well-reasoned replies in this thread from seasoned tanks. Nicely done!



One of the best responses I've seen in this thread, and I agree 100%. For me, the cardinal sins of tanking are, in declining order of importance:

1) Dying
2) Losing Enmity
3) Cleaving party members
...
∞) Not doing "Big D*** DPS"

Unless the pace of a dungeon is going abysmally slow due to lackluster DPS (and let's face it, we all want to get it done and over with), I take the "safe road" and stay in Shield most of the time because I just want to clear with no hassles or drama.

Yep. Not that I don't try to do good damage while tanking, but my main priorities are holding enmity, mitigating damage, and positioning. Squeezing out more damage is a side benefit once I've learned the boss and have the first three down. Especially since most of what I do is pugging duty finder content, and odds are I've never met the healer(s) and won't remember them if I happen to get them again down the road.

If my main goal was putting out as much damage as I possibly can (while still obeying boss mechanics) I'd just main a dps.

[Atreides]

I, for one, am pleased to be seeing more well-reasoned replies in this thread from seasoned tanks. Nicely done!



One of the best responses I've seen in this thread, and I agree 100%. For me, the cardinal sins of tanking are, in declining order of importance:

1) Dying
2) Losing Enmity
3) Cleaving party members
...
∞) Not doing "Big D*** DPS"

Unless the pace of a dungeon is going abysmally slow due to lackluster DPS (and let's face it, we all want to get it done and over with), I take the "safe road" and stay in Shield most of the time because I just want to clear with no hassles or drama.

The only thing I drop in a Dungeon or any content in this game is my Tank Stance so I can go for the big numbers, no matter if the DPS are bad or good. If they are good the fight will end before I need to use another CD, if they are bad I at least managed to speed up the fight by a significant amout. There is like no drawback in DPSing as a tank... Enemies die quicker so in the end you take less damage than this dude that thinks he is a turtle. :|
When I go with my raid members we finish a dungeon in less than 15 minutes.

[Hierro]

The only thing I drop in a Dungeon or any content in this game is my Tank Stance so I can go for the big numbers, no matter if the DPS are bad or good. If they are good the fight will end before I need to use another CD, if they are bad I at least managed to speed up the fight by a significant amout. There is like no drawback in DPSing as a tank... Enemies die quicker so in the end you take less damage than this dude that thinks he is a turtle. :|
When I go with my raid members we finish a dungeon in less than 15 minutes.

I agree. For example, that priority list is far too easy to accomplish. All you do is make your character run a little bit further.... and done. Now that position's out the way, what about aggro? Not an issue if you established aggro with one or two simple AoEs in tank stance. Let's keep in mind that the difference between tank stance and dps stance is 20% more damage taken. This isn't triple, double, not even taking 50% more, but 20%. There isn't going to be a sudden threat of walking down a tight-rope of aggro/life-or-death. Unless you're playing like a chimpanzee, dying isn't happening, tank stance or not!

I think most tanks are plagued by a combination of confidence and competency issues, poor optimization of cooldowns or what have you. Big Nick Dps is all that matters to me, because all other bases are covered from the very beginning. They're not even a question at this point for me, not a concern, and if they were, it's not because of me that's for sure.

[Lilyth]

Snip

I, for one, am pleased to be seeing more well-reasoned replies in this thread from seasoned tanks. Nicely done!

One of the best responses I've seen in this thread, and I agree 100%. For me, the cardinal sins of tanking are, in declining order of importance:

1) Dying
2) Losing Enmity
3) Cleaving party members
...
∞) Not doing "Big D*** DPS"

Unless the pace of a dungeon is going abysmally slow due to lackluster DPS (and let's face it, we all want to get it done and over with), I take the "safe road" and stay in Shield most of the time because I just want to clear with no hassles or drama.

Just wanna drop my two cents here.

While I agree that Tanks should hold aggro and avoid cleaving party members, I really don't like to call such tasks "priorities". Naming them so gives a player the false impression that as long as you're successfully following them, you're already playing your class well and shouldn't have to worry about anything else. That right there is a very common trap I see many people step on, leading them to be seen not only as really mediocre players later on, but also as disrespectful towards other people's time, lazy and overall unwanted teammates.

Holding aggro and turning the boss away from the party on tank stance, to put it bluntly, is the most brain dead sleep inducing task you could ask of someone. It's literally pressing 1-2-3 while on tank stance. And that, ladies and gentlemen, while definitely important for the tank role, is not good play. That's not the priority. That's the bare minimum.

While new players might find it comfortable at first and it definitely helps them getting the flow of the role, this type of playstyle should not be encouraged as "good gameplay". It's merely a stepping stone for newer tanks to gradually get used to the job while they learn the more advanced tecnniques, which in return will further increase their contribution to the party and ultimately lead them to become better tanks.