So, how is Pagos?

[Vnolan]

Farming more protean for addition weapons after your first is going to be very slow. I've heard of people getting a large boost from gentle or bright light, but this hasn't happened to me ever. It's either feeble light or nothing. Presumably that will be nerfed some time, but not until the weapon is irrelevant aside from glamour. Louhi seems a big pain to spawn.

With that rate of feeble it's possible there is a mechanic with the light that hasn't been understood yet. Both previous relics had bonus windows for light and there are tiers above feeble as you say. If it was just rng the rates are ridiculously low.

[AngelyLowell]

Eureka could have some daily quests, like beast tribes.

These quests would be specific for your level range and you could do solo and explore the area progressively.

So, people who wants to rush they level will continue to do some chain/NM spawns and people who are there for the lore and exploration will do solo quests.

[Zsolen]

You have plenty of other content to do, those of us do the relics from ARR to HW ones that want our SB ones have 0 option but do Eureka unlike last two which gave a lot of different content to do in order to complete each step of relic, even the books that people hate were do fates/dungeons & not just grind this single mob hope NM spawns.
If want any gear you've got Raids,Trials,Dungeons,24-mans,Vendors,Crafters.. if want my SB relic I got... .. Pagos.

I can say that once I finish my Pagos Relic "working step 2" I wont be goign back for any others like did with Anemos grinding more than one, Pagos is just tedious in game not design be this tedious.

I'm starting to think some people don't understand the point of relics. They aren't meant to take a short amount of time. Anemos was way too fast. Doing other content to get a relic is not working on a relic, unless it is content you would not otherwise do. If you want ilvl 370 weapons and not want to do Pagos, then run Lighthouse or raid. Suggestions are one thing, but don't try to avoid the grind and still get the relic by complaining to SE.

[Zsolen]

Hmm, reddit has a thread with upwards of a 1000+ updates with the majority of people complaining how awful Pagos is. This is one of many threads. Numerous people have commented their discords and FC circles have also complained about Pagos. So no, it isn't just a small group on the forums. More or less everywhere FFXIV you look, people are trashing Pagos for being a dull, boring, uncreative mess. Regardless, no one is even asking for the mob chain to be nerfed, they're asking for options. In such a scenario, you get your mob grind while the rest of us get the NM train, quests, leves or whatever other alternatives that isn't "grind 500 Blood Demons so Ash Dragon maybe spawns." If I wanted a Korean grind style MMO, I'd play one.

First, there is no way I would be allowed to do anything with chains, once the train comes back. People become angry and bitter you don't do things their way. Second, once the train comes back, relics are handed out like candy again. That is not how it is meant to be. Third, you don't have to run Pagos or get a relic. You are free to do other content. Why don't people understand that this shouldn't be a cake walk. Nerfing the chains might even be a good idea, but I'm not sure.

[InkstainedGwyn]

Went into Anemos last night. Instance was consistently filled between 120-144 players, ~75% of whom were >20. Heard a couple of NMs not with the train spawned while the train was elsewhere. Got 2.5 of my challenge logs filled and ~1/2 a level in ~ 1h. Looked into Pagos, saw ~60 players, this could have changed and or been a new instance but the comparison was stark. And without asking I don't know how many people were in there because they liked it and how many because they just want the relic, even if the slog sucks, like my FC-mates.

[RayneLittlewinkle]

It's not getting better like anemos did. It seems to be getting worse since the higher level people do not gain xp from helping lower levels it's starting to get really hard finding a group your level range. I've seen nearly 20 or more people standing for 10 minutes spaming looking for a group.

Also sadly not everyone also has the same mindset I'm level 25 and I want to be killing mobs levels 29-32 while others are okay with killing monsters only two levels above them. The xp at that rate is very very low. I disliked anemos but I really hate Pagos.

[InkstainedGwyn]

I'm starting to think some people don't understand the point of relics.

You've been asked several times where you got this supposed "fact" because you keep consistently trying to claim that the relic is supposed to be "a challenge" and no, it's not. The EX and savage weapons are the challenge, the relic is a casual-friendly way to get a decent weapon. You may feel like this is supposed to be some grand "test" to weed out the weak but that's - literally not it, it's supposed to be something you sink some time in here or there. The only people I know who are above 25 in Pagos are the people who spend upwards of 10 hours a day in there. (I'm sure someone's going to speak up and be an exception but I have no in-game proof of that.)

And yet again, I want to point out that whereas you were perfectly happy removing the method we found to be semi-enjoyable, none of us want to take away the ability to chain mobs (and, in fact, is viable still in Anemos, some folks were doing it last night). The fact that you can't find anybody else who wants to shows you just how many people enjoy it. What was that about there being a lot of people who like it?

I don't care how long the relic takes, I just want to not have to repeat the same 10 actions over and over again until my wrist breaks. That may be fun for you, but if I wanted that kind of tedium and repetition I'd clean my spare room or weed my garden. Those at least give me some level of satisfaction. All I want is variety and a way to enjoy myself; I stopped enjoying mindless slogs when video games advanced and improved to start including actual other elements and mechanics.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

First, there is no way I would be allowed to do anything with chains, once the train comes back. People become angry and bitter you don't do things their way. Second, once the train comes back, relics are handed out like candy again. That is not how it is meant to be. Third, you don't have to run Pagos or get a relic. You are free to do other content. Why don't people understand that this shouldn't be a cake walk. Nerfing the chains might even be a good idea, but I'm not sure.

Doesn't that tell you something? If you cannot get a chain party because of the NM train, that means people don't want to do it. Why is that a difficult concept? There is nothing stopping you from putting up a PF before even queuing for Eureka and trying to set up a train. If no one bites, well, I guess people don't like it. Regardless, you keep prattling on about people want relics handed to them. Multiple people in this thread, on reddit and virtually everywhere have they'd prefer the Unidentifiable Orbs or Book phase from previous relics. If you think either of those were a walk in the park, you've clearly never participated. What people want are options. Before we could run different dungeons, do beast tribes or trials. Now we're restricted to Pagos and only Pagos. It's easy to say people don't have to do it, but they are allowed to give feedback. And that feedback has been overwhelmingly negative regardless of your own opinion.

I suspect the actual reason you've continuously ignored people simply wanting options is because you know they won't do the chain, which is your preferred method. Therefore, you'll fight to keep it despite accusing others of simply wanting things their way, when you're doing precisely the same thing.

That being said, I have, indeed, elected not to partake in the relic this expansion if a boring, monotones grind is all they can muster. I have Savage weapons. And in less than a month, I'll have a crafted weapon because the relics will be outdated before most people even obtain them. Quality design choice.

[Zojha]

Now we're restricted to Pagos and only Pagos.

And, as a side note, that wouldn't even be so bad if the gameplay within Pagos would be sufficiently varied.

It just happens to be not.

[Claviusnex]

You've been asked several times where you got this supposed "fact" because you keep consistently trying to claim that the relic is supposed to be "a challenge" and no, it's not. The EX and savage weapons are the challenge, the relic is a casual-friendly way to get a decent weapon. You may feel like this is supposed to be some grand "test" to weed out the weak but that's - literally not it, it's supposed to be something you sink some time in here or there. The only people I know who are above 25 in Pagos are the people who spend upwards of 10 hours a day in there. (I'm sure someone's going to speak up and be an exception but I have no in-game proof of that.)

- snip -

In fact it is the EX and Savage weapons that form the basis of SE's rationale for starting the Relic so late in the patch cycle. It is to allow the higher level players to have and maintain exclusivity of the best gear without being lowered in value by casual players who get similar gear levels via an easier path.

The grind is there not to make things appear harder, that is done with content, but to limit the rate at which people complete the goals. In Pagos the content itself isn't any harder and is likely easier than previous Relic dungeon/raid requirements. The problem is with the gating techniques. Chaining doesn't allow for breaks like you had with Anemos or previous Relic grinds. You can't even let the dog out or change the baby without breaking the chain and wasting the party's time. The spawning of NM's is also a gate however with Pagos they have become so rare you have to wonder if they are worth the reward. Another gate is the rewards that are used to entice people to keep playing. Rewards includes XP along with the tangible stuff like lock boxes, minions, etc. The drop rate is so low on any of it that people get tired of waiting for RNG they quit playing. All of these techniques are broken for all but the hardcore players who have lots of time to spend in Pagos.

Another problem is low levels have no catch up mechanism which has become an unintended gate whereas running instances allowed high level players to directly or indirectly help lower level players due to level sync. If you only have a few hours per week or 30 minutes here or there it is likely you will never be able to finish Pagos, This is due to no one to group with. Much like Anemos before the NM train Pagos is already showing signs of this but has no mechanism, no matter how inefficient, for low level players to compensate and catch up.

I think it would help if some of the players quit equating effort (grind) to challenge. Other than the risk of repetitive stress injuries Pagos is not that much of a challenge so fits the casual definition. The problem is the effort required far out weighs the benefit of the rewards and the gap becomes even wider over time for those that cannot dedicate a lot of time to Pagos.