Letter to MR Yoshi: Why parses system is destroying the ffxiv world.

[24spencer]

And dps loss from healer not dps'ing isn't that high anyway.

you can literally outdps dps classes in a dungeon run if you aoe properly, can you please not make up misinformation like this?
even in singletarget fights having both healers doing even a token amount of damage spam can literally match or surpass the amount the average dps players put out and as a result healer dps contributes in a massive way to the speed of a run and you will absolutely feel the excrutiatingly low party damage if you get a cure 1 bot in a dungeon as opposed to a healer who uses off-globals intelligently to open up room to dps.

[MoroMurasaki]

Actually, letting parsing be a thing in the game would lead to too much harassment which is why it will never ever happen.

Did you not read my post that you quoted? Even if SE implemented a parser of their own that was visible all the time to everyone there would be no change to existing harrassment rules.

Yoshi P was clear on this many times.

He was not. This is a lie.

Parsing by definition will make this game entirely worse of a community and while I dont oppose parsing like I said in my previous post, it would lead to very unpleasant PUGS.

Do you understand what the word 'definition' means? It seems like you may not.

So, regardless of what is reported as harassment, if it has anything to do with parses it would be harassment.

Yes, right now. That is my point. Right now if I have someone performing poorly I have to kick them without ever telling them why they are being kicked, even if I know exactly what they would need to do to fix their dps. I have to do this because if I say something too detailed about what they might be doing wrong I risk incriminating myself or my party members in this victimless crime.

If talking about parses wasn't against the ToS I might not even have to kick some people since with a little guidance maybe they could turn themselves around.

You do realize there is a difference between "Sorry, we need all 4 dps above 4.5k to beat this enrage and you're sitting at 3.2k - I think you might need to do some fight research before joining a weekly clear party," and "You are garbage, who does 3.2k on this fight? Why do you even play this, do everyone a favor and quit."

Both are informed by knowledge gained from parsing but only one of them is actually harrassment. Technically you could report the polite person as well but you can't even actually report them for harrassment, only for breaking the ToS by using a third-party tool.

I feel like there is a fundamental misunderstanding about what the word harrassment even means at this point.

Here every job has decent dps potential

And dps loss from healer not dps'ing isn't that high anyway.

Hmmm....

[Nixxe]

And dps loss from healer not dps'ing isn't that high anyway.

An aggressively AOEing WHM can put out pretty substantial damage. I'd also point out that Holy is extremely helpful as a tool to assist with tank mitigation on larger pulls and I definitely miss it and can easily see the difference in the healing required when I switch to SCH or AST, which have nothing as good for that sort of situation.

[SaitoHikari]

How is anyone supposed to provide proof for toxicity, especially when comparing it with 4 to 5 years ago? I was around and was doing ex content when they started to be spreading (which was around the beginning of HW), and i could feel a shift in the community at the same time. I don't know if the shift in the community made the parsers appear or whether the parsers caused the shift. My guess is, both amplified each other.

Alexander Gordias happened (the raid tier that took a month to clear, so difficult that it resulted in a mass transfer to Gilgamesh and cemented its status as the raid server for NA with the cross-world PF needing to be created in response, the most optimal way to handle the last fight was to literally sacrifice party members to a particular mechanic instead of trying to do it normally, and it turned out the devs never properly tested it before release at all), as well as the abysmal state several jobs were in at the start of HW (most parties kicked Bards and Machinist on sight from Bismarck EX out of a belief that they were so bad that their presence would automatically lead to an enrage, and this was largely before parsing exploded into popularity).

It was also the raid tier where hard enrages became a major thing from that point onward. This game is still reeling from the effects of that raid tier, two whole years ago.

It's quite an odd paradox, that hard enrages exist in a game where the developers and a significant portion of the community insists on DPS being hidden.

[Nekohauscat]

I never said the DPS should not use their enmity tools. I fully agree that it's everyone's responsibility. But if someone screws up (e.g. by not using their enmity tools) it's the tanks job to make up for their mistake regarding enmity, dealing with enmity is their primary job. As a healer has to heal people screwing up and getting hit by avoidable attacks. But lots of tanks here seem to think that everyone but them has to use their enmity tools. A tank letting a DPS die by neither using the aggro combo more often or a short visit to tank stance because a DPS didn't use their enmity tools is pushing all the responsibility on others, just to increase their personal DPS. The tank even drastically lowers the group's DPS by doing so. And yet, most people here applaud to that behaviour. See http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...nmity-controls
That's the kind of stuff i don't want to deal with anymore, and i think without the DPS number comparisons the issue wouldn't be nearly as prominent.

Btw: Tanks have a DPS stance so they are not slowed down too much when soloing/playing through the story.

fomofu just above is very on point with analyzing the issue. Use your parsers, they are helpful tools, but keep them and all that comes with them where they belong: in the current savage raid, the newest or two ex primals and ultimate content.


This is the last thing i'm going to say in this thread. It's the experience i have made playing this game on on off since the release of ARR, other people's might be different, and there is no convincing each other.

Sorry for being blunt, but if you are tanking in tankstance, you are screwing Up. Your tankstance is outside of prog and ultimate useless, so why hinder your group and not contribute to dps?
To be fair, If there is a damage dealer who used diversion and is still in danger of overtaking, I adjust for him. But if someone is to lazy to press a Button every two Minutes, they should not do savage content in the First place IMO

Sorry for OT and BTT
parses are Important e.e not only for dps, but it shows deaths too

[AlexRaines]

Here’s the dirty little secret about third party parsers in FFXIV: Square-Enix doesn’t care. The use of parsers is like the Harvey Weinstein of this game. Everyone knows, but unless it directly affects people, they aren’t going to do anything about it. During world progression, Yoshida watches the streams, many if not all of which show ACT or other parsers prominently displayed. Yet, despite this being easily viewed, Square doesn’t ban these players for using it. Because here’s the other dirty secret: it’s not parsers that are the problem, it’s the community.

Players on both sides are “toxic” regarding parsers. On the side of those who dislike them, people are so quick to be offended despite the tone that is given (which is, admittedly difficult to ascertain sometimes through text). If a player with a parser offers to help someone, they are often met with some form of “you don’t pay my sub” or “why don’t you focus on what you’re doing instead of what I’m doing.” Players like this don’t want to improve and they see the game as either a more casual outlet, or they just don’t care about the other 3-7 players whose subs they don’t pay.

Meanwhile, on the other end, there are players who get vicious if someone isn’t playing well at all. This isn’t solely limited to players with parsers. Remember the skip soar or disband parties?

So what’s the solution to this? Unfortunately it’s exactly what square is already doing. They allow players to use third party parsers unless they are harassing people, at which point they will then either take action or not. Square will never implement an official parser despite several benefits because they don’t want to contribute to the potential harassment of any player one way or another.

It sounds like you, and several others have either had bad experiences with players who use parsers, or are jumping on the anti-parser bandwagon. But I guarantee you that for every player who acts like a jerk and calls out your dps, there is also a player actively attempting to offer constructive criticism being told to screw off because the players he’s offering help to can’t handle being told that they aren’t god’s gift to humanity.

[Terrestrialrage]

Omg that’s not the problem dear, It’s the ideology behind parses that is bad . Btw I don’t have any problem cos I am a fantastic healer

Late to the party, but I had to laugh at this comment. A quick search tells you dude is actually a sub-par, possibly average healer AT BEST. Looks like the only reason you've ever cleared any savage content is because of people that USE parser and give a damn enough to optimize, because you clearly don't.

[Sigma-Astra]

It all depends about which type of content we're talking about. Healer not doing much else except only healing once in a minute, as long as nobody in party is dying, in regular dungeon is tolerable. Actually it's tolerable in any content without enrage.xD Of course his dps contribution would be welcome, but hey, it's random person from duty finder, I don't know him and don't expect much, as long as he doesn't make it too hard for us. And dps loss from healer not dps'ing isn't that high anyway.

Motivation to improve must come from that person himself. You can't just force someone to 'git gud' if he don't wants to. I agree it would be nice if everyone would be capable of playing up to some standart, but let's try not to make that 'standart' too high, so that this game wouldn't become too serious and hardcore.

What you wrote here is called optimal gameplay. If content ex and above - it's mandatory. In any content below ex - optional. If you disagree - I'm afraid we'll not get along :<

....Are you a Sylphie healer?

To be fair, if SE didn't want healers to DPS and strictly heal others, then they wouldn't have given you offensive spells like Stone, Aero, Holy, Broil, Malefic, etc. That's just me.

Same thing goes for tanks, they wouldn't have given tanks a DPS stance at all if that was their primary intention.

[Elamys]

To be fair, if SE didn't want healers to DPS and strictly heal others, then they wouldn't have given you offensive spells like Stone, Aero, Holy, Broil, Malefic, etc. That's just me.

Same thing goes for tanks, they wouldn't have given tanks a DPS stance at all if that was their primary intention.

Not really, healers need to be able to complete the solo battle content. That's the root reason why they have those spells, since SE claims over and over they don't design content with healer DPS in mind. Just a little side note to that. (I'm not saying healers shouldn't DPS please don't turn this into one of those threads)

[Sigma-Astra]

Not really, healers need to be able to complete the solo battle content. That's the root reason why they have those spells, since SE claims over and over they don't design content with healer DPS in mind. Just a little side note to that. (I'm not saying healers shouldn't DPS please don't turn this into one of those threads)

True, you're right, but I also like to think that they probably didn't want their player base to feel like they were limited towards using them just for solo content either otherwise it would look like people should ignore half of their toolkits as soon as they start doing group content.

Also, I don't really believe SE's claims because I think that they're staring to design, at least the harder content like EX, 24 raids, and Savage, in mind with tank and healer DPS now even if they say that they don't. But, for dungeons? You're probably right about them not caring enough to design tank and healer DPS around that stuff at least anyways. The most times I feel and see a problem where healer and tank DPS is readily needed in dungeons is when you have one or both DPS that are terrible and well.....gotta make up those missing numbers somewhere else somehow.

I was in a party last night for Swallow's Compass and myself and the AST were out DPSing a SMN...and I just had to tilt my head at exactly what on earth this SMN was doing. I mean, no healer or tank should be out DPSing a DPS either, but sometimes it happens. It's really sad when you see it too, lol.

So yea, while they may claim that they don't design around them. I'm inclined to think that they do towards some degree or they're at least aware of it.