Letter to MR Yoshi: Why parses system is destroying the ffxiv world.

[fumofu]

So what's with the "casual palyers" that start raiding or just enter those fights for fun and destroy "our" game by not meeting the minimum skill needed to clear the "hardcore" fights of the game?
I fail to see that this is a oneway road and the raiders are the bad ones here.

My point is, it goes both ways. Raids aren't there 'just for fun. It's meant for players who yearn for a challenge and have a desire to improve. And they shouldn't be entered with 'just for fun' attitude. Want raid? You better watch guides and study/train your rotations, gear up and enter properly prepared. And that's totally acceptable and expected, cos it's end game, and at that point any player should be totally familiar with the game and have a clear understanding what kind of content is most appealing for him and be able to make a decision for which path to take: easy path of casual player or painful and hard path of a raider.

Therefore, there's no excuse for entering savage raid 'just for fun'.

As a healer main I tell you it is not stressful to heal a tank in off-stance.
What really is stressful, is healing a party with people doing supbar dps so the fight is unnecessary long. Most of the time those DDs are also not very skilled in executing mechanics properly so this comes on top. Overly long fights with phases you haven't seen since week 1 + people taking avoidable damage.
No thanks, I'd rather take the skilled tank in DPS-Stance that deals a whole frekkin' lot of damage.

On top of that there is literally no class in the game that has no utility to decrease their enmity. Why should people refuse to use those skills?!

To answer your first point:
It all depends on which kind of content you're talking about. If you mean regular dungeons - I understand your pain, but in this case you have plenty of choices by yourself. Either form party with your friends and play it your way, or if you're playing with random players, just try doing your best. Can also try giving some advice. And there's always an option of leaving dungeon and eating that penalty. It's all cool.
And there's plenty of reasons why people can play badly. But let's not get into detail...

Next: emnity management. Primary that's job of a tank. That means tank is expected to hold agro at all times and if he fails at that - that's his problem first and foremost. You understand? People expects tank to tank. And agro management skills for other jobs? Well, if we're talking about job unique actions like DRG elusive jump or NIN shadewalker and smoke screen then aye, if you have them - feel free to use them if situation requires. But if we're talking about role actions - they're optional. That means, if I don't want - i don't have to take it. Casual playstyle is not necessary about optimality and efficiency, but about fun above all else.

Also, there might be a matter of principle. Tank must hold mobs. Period. I don't care about his dps, I'm even cool if he's 100% in tank stance and does only agro combo and skills, because that's his main job. To hold mobs. Tank in dps stance and mobs run around attacking everyone except tank? That's bad tank then. As dps I might not even have any emnity reducing skills on my skill bar, and why should I? My job is dps, and if I have skills to reduce my emnity - sure I can use it. But as tank I will NEVER ever blame other dps for ripping my aggro and not using emnity reducing skills, because I know that if as tank I don't hold mobs on me - I'm bad tank. Or my gear sucks....well, you got the point.

[AmeliaVerves]

Therefore, there's no excuse for entering savage raid 'just for fun'.

While raiding and improving ofc is fun for many, I get what you are saying and I kinda agree. Sadly the OP did not and that is where those 50 sites came from.


To the rest: I was talking about raids. I don't even care too much about dungeon runs to even bother. As long as the group can finish the dungeon at some point, I'm fine. Hell, I don't even do dungeons apart from the few Expert Roulette runs I need for my weekly tomestone cap.
Your thoughts about enmity tho are something I do not share and I think they are wrong even in casual content. You may have fun in your playstyle, but I as being your tank wont have fun. That's where I would either try vote kicking you bc of "difference in playstyle" or if that fails I would just leave the duty. You are just not the kind of person I want to play with in the end so I feel free to use the tools given by SE to either remove you or myself from the party. ^^

Casual playstyle is not necessary about optimality and efficiency, but about fun above all else.

This statement is kinda risky bc it can literally justify everything you want to.
It's fun for you to only dps as healer? -> Cool, fun above all else!
If's fun for you to stay in dps stance? -> Cool, fun above all else!
If's fun for you to only do single target as DPS? -> Cool, fun above all else!
It's fun for you to only press 2 buttons? -> Cool, fun above all else!
While these are strong exaggerations I think you get the point. If I want to play up to a certain standard even in casual content bc it's more fun for me that should be respected as well.

[Ultima]

My point is, it goes both ways. Raids aren't there 'just for fun. It's meant for players who yearn for a challenge and have a desire to improve. And they shouldn't be entered with 'just for fun' attitude. Want raid? You better watch guides and study/train your rotations, gear up and enter properly prepared. And that's totally acceptable and expected, cos it's end game, and at that point any player should be totally familiar with the game and have a clear understanding what kind of content is most appealing for him and be able to make a decision for which path to take: easy path of casual player or painful and hard path of a raider.

Therefore, there's no excuse for entering savage raid 'just for fun'.



To answer your first point:
It all depends on which kind of content you're talking about. If you mean regular dungeons - I understand your pain, but in this case you have plenty of choices by yourself. Either form party with your friends and play it your way, or if you're playing with random players, just try doing your best. Can also try giving some advice. And there's always an option of leaving dungeon and eating that penalty. It's all cool.
And there's plenty of reasons why people can play badly. But let's not get into detail...

Next: emnity management. Primary that's job of a tank. That means tank is expected to hold agro at all times and if he fails at that - that's his problem first and foremost. You understand? People expects tank to tank. And agro management skills for other jobs? Well, if we're talking about job unique actions like DRG elusive jump or NIN shadewalker and smoke screen then aye, if you have them - feel free to use them if situation requires. But if we're talking about role actions - they're optional. That means, if I don't want - i don't have to take it. Casual playstyle is not necessary about optimality and efficiency, but about fun above all else.

Also, there might be a matter of principle. Tank must hold mobs. Period. I don't care about his dps, I'm even cool if he's 100% in tank stance and does only agro combo and skills, because that's his main job. To hold mobs. Tank in dps stance and mobs run around attacking everyone except tank? That's bad tank then. As dps I might not even have any emnity reducing skills on my skill bar, and why should I? My job is dps, and if I have skills to reduce my emnity - sure I can use it. But as tank I will NEVER ever blame other dps for ripping my aggro and not using emnity reducing skills, because I know that if as tank I don't hold mobs on me - I'm bad tank. Or my gear sucks....well, you got the point.

Please never be in the same party as me, role actions are not "optional" skills, they're poorly designed and everyone takes Diversion or Lucid Dreaming or Tactician/Refresh depending on their role to reduce their enmity. There are no role actions worth considering over these, even at a casual "for fun" level and in 4.4 there will be 10 role action slots so you WILL absolutely have these skills no matter your "playstyle". Aggro management is the duty of ALL roles and I will not let you pretend that you can get out of managing your threat generation.They even added a DPS loss way to reduce your enmity as SAM via Merciful Eyes and MNK has Purification to reduce their enmity. You do not put that solely on the tank, we all contribute to make the party run smoothly by managing our threat, it is not the tank's fault if the RDM or BLM didn't pop Diversion before going all-out on a freshly pulled mob pack and how dare you try to put that evil on the tank.

Your job as Tank is to hold the boss, survive their blows, and do the most damage you can while doing the first two tasks. It has been like this since ARR 2.0.

Your job as DPS is to kill the boss, not die to mechanics, and use your utility to make the fight easier and that includes reducing your enmity or providing buffs like Mantra or Battle Litany or what have you. It has been that way since ARR 2.0.

Your job as Healer is to keep the group alive, not die to mechanics, and use time where you don't have to heal to make the boss die faster. That is how the game is designed and that is how it has been since ARR 2.0.

[24spencer]

Also, there might be a matter of principle

Stopped reading here. If you're not going to use free ogcd tools "out of principle" then I hope your principles help you mitigate the next tankbuster.

[fumofu]

Raider are the ones that give most to the community. They try to understand game mechanics and share it with the rest of us. Find the best openers/rotations and write guides about them. Also, they are willing to answer questions.
No one is asking you to play like top players. They just want you to know the basics and preform at an average level. What you see in DF/PF is way below average my friend.

I admire their passion and dedication for this game. I love this game too, just not savage content. As for those guides, aye, they are valuable indeed and it's nice they are available to anyone, thanks to those dedicated individuals who put their time and effort to write it. But try to understand, it's up to players how to play this game. And if we don't treat this game as some optimisation puzzle - we're under no obligation to study and obey those guides if we don't intend to venture into savage. And hell,some of job guides are so deep and incredibly complicated, to the point that if feels they're meant to make gameplay as complicated as possible xD

Please never be in the same party as me, role actions are not "optional" skills, they're poorly designed and everyone takes Diversion or Lucid Dreaming or Tactician/Refresh depending on their role to reduce their enmity. There are no role actions worth considering over these, even at a casual "for fun" level and in 4.4 there will be 10 role action slots so you WILL absolutely have these skills no matter your "playstyle". Aggro management is the duty of ALL roles and I will not let you pretend that you can get out of managing your threat generation.They even added a DPS loss way to reduce your enmity as SAM via Merciful Eyes and MNK has Purification to reduce their enmity. You do not put that solely on the tank, we all contribute to make the party run smoothly by managing our threat, it is not the tank's fault if the RDM or BLM didn't pop Diversion before going all-out on a freshly pulled mob pack and how dare you try to put that evil on the tank.

Your job as Tank is to hold the boss, survive their blows, and do the most damage you can while doing the first two tasks. It has been like this since ARR 2.0.

Your job as DPS is to kill the boss, not die to mechanics, and use your utility to make the fight easier and that includes reducing your enmity or providing buffs like Mantra or Battle Litany or what have you. It has been that way since ARR 2.0.

Your job as Healer is to keep the group alive, not die to mechanics, and use time where you don't have to heal to make the boss die faster. That is how the game is designed and that is how it has been since ARR 2.0.

What you wrote here is called optimal gameplay. If content ex and above - it's mandatory. In any content below ex - optional. If you disagree - I'm afraid we'll not get along :<

[MontyChamberlain]

Also, there might be a matter of principle. Tank must hold mobs. Period. I don't care about his dps, I'm even cool if he's 100% in tank stance and does only agro combo and skills, because that's his main job. To hold mobs. Tank in dps stance and mobs run around attacking everyone except tank? That's bad tank then. As dps I might not even have any emnity reducing skills on my skill bar, and why should I? My job is dps, and if I have skills to reduce my emnity - sure I can use it. But as tank I will NEVER ever blame other dps for ripping my aggro and not using emnity reducing skills, because I know that if as tank I don't hold mobs on me - I'm bad tank. Or my gear sucks....well, you got the point.

It would be great if the game rewarded both tanks and healers more for JUST doing their job and nothing more. Unfortunately, the way the game allows most skill expression is through damage, and for tanks, it is juggling their damage and their tank stances.

There is a point where tanks and healers learn that they can do more than just hold enmity or heal damage. That is where they learn that they can speed up dungeon runs or fights or pass a DPS check in high-end content. And it doesn't take that much effort to switch to a damage stance or cast a damage spell. Unfortunately, I believe healers are the most culpable at times because of the way the game is structured and the expectations players unfamiliar with how enemy damage operates.

Case in point, would you be okay with a healer who does nothing but cast Medica/Helios/Succor every once in a while and then stands there doing nothing? With a tank, it's less obvious that they are not putting in damage numbers, but when you see a healer stand there for up to a whole minute until the next raidwide or the next tankbuster, would that sit well with you? In most cases, if both healers in an 8-man duty were to DPS when possible (whilst still doing their healer duties obviously), they would almost always add up to another DPS's worth of damage. Considering that there would always be a couple of people who make mistakes (because we're all people after all) and therefore lower the party DPS, wouldn't it make sense to have everyone - including healers and tanks - add as much damage as they can whilst fulfilling their roles? Is it fair to a DPS player who has to press buttons every half a second to witness a healer player simply press a button every 30 seconds? Of course not.

Parses show you who is doing the least damage so you know which person is best to buff. Parses can tell you who is familiar with fight mechanics and who needs a pre-emptive heal in case they fail mechanics. Most of all, parses can tell who is putting little effort by class based on swing count. Never in my time of playing FFXIV have I kicked anyone for a low damage parse. I am sure other people have at some point, but to me, parses are simply there to tell me how I can adjust to other players.

[Nixxe]

All i can say on this topic is, that the community around more difficult content has become much more toxic with the emergence and spreading of parsers. It might be coincidence, maybe it was just that the popularity the game was gaining by then attracted those people, but it might also be due to parsers. Probably both.

Edit: It's part of the reason why i stopped doing current savage/extreme content, it was way more fun to me before people started using parsers due to a much more friendly community.

I think the community has generally gotten a bit worse over the years, regardless of the area, though that seems to be a naturally occurring trend in MMOs as they age and grow, and likely also has to do with a certain other game shedding subscribers in the same period.

[fumofu]

This statement is kinda risky bc it can literally justify everything you want to.
It's fun for you to only dps as healer? -> Cool, fun above all else!
If's fun for you to stay in dps stance? -> Cool, fun above all else!
If's fun for you to only do single target as DPS? -> Cool, fun above all else!
It's fun for you to only press 2 buttons? -> Cool, fun above all else!
While these are strong exaggerations I think you get the point. If I want to play up to a certain standard even in casual content bc it's more fun for me that should be respected as well.

That's interesting point. And it's actually not a very big exaggeration, cos what you just wrote - it actually happens from time to time! xD

Guess problem with this game is that it doesn't strictly follows traditional MMO system where tanks just tank, healers just heal, etc. Here every job has decent dps potential. But problem arises when roles that traditionally weren't meant to dps, starts focusing here on dps above all else. That's where friction, between players who have different views, begins.

[Ultima]

I admire their passion and dedication for this game. I love this game too, just not savage content. As for those guides, aye, they are valuable indeed and it's nice they are available to anyone, thanks to those dedicated individuals who put their time and effort to write it. But try to understand, it's up to players how to play this game. And if we don't treat this game as some optimisation puzzle - we're under no obligation to study and obey those guides if we don't intend to venture into savage. And hell,some of job guides are so deep and incredibly complicated, to the point that if feels they're meant to make gameplay as complicated as possible xD


What you wrote here is called optimal gameplay. If content ex and above - it's mandatory. In any content below ex - optional. If you disagree - I'm afraid we'll not get along :<

Aye, I guess we won't because I can't tolerate DPS who refuse to use their oGCD utility, Healers who want to AFK for upward to 30 seconds between major damage to heal, and Tanks who want to turtle in Tank Stance when the dev team has given them plenty of tools to help DPS like Deliverance-Inner Release or Requisescat or Delirium. Their alternative uses don't feel good to use because you're overhealing with Inner Beast, you're not going to spam Clemency with Requisescat on a boss, and Blood Price is hated for being too weak even for the most turtle-minded DRK players.

[fumofu]

It would be great if the game rewarded both tanks and healers more for JUST doing their job and nothing more. Unfortunately, the way the game allows most skill expression is through damage, and for tanks, it is juggling their damage and their tank stances.

There is a point where tanks and healers learn that they can do more than just hold enmity or heal damage. That is where they learn that they can speed up dungeon runs or fights or pass a DPS check in high-end content. And it doesn't take that much effort to switch to a damage stance or cast a damage spell. Unfortunately, I believe healers are the most culpable at times because of the way the game is structured and the expectations players unfamiliar with how enemy damage operates.

Case in point, would you be okay with a healer who does nothing but cast Medica/Helios/Succor every once in a while and then stands there doing nothing? With a tank, it's less obvious that they are not putting in damage numbers, but when you see a healer stand there for up to a whole minute until the next raidwide or the next tankbuster, would that sit well with you? In most cases, if both healers in an 8-man duty were to DPS when possible (whilst still doing their healer duties obviously), they would almost always add up to another DPS's worth of damage. Considering that there would always be a couple of people who make mistakes (because we're all people after all) and therefore lower the party DPS, wouldn't it make sense to have everyone - including healers and tanks - add as much damage as they can whilst fulfilling their roles? Is it fair to a DPS player who has to press buttons every half a second to witness a healer player simply press a button every 30 seconds? Of course not.

Parses show you who is doing the least damage so you know which person is best to buff. Parses can tell you who is familiar with fight mechanics and who needs a pre-emptive heal in case they fail mechanics. Most of all, parses can tell who is putting little effort by class based on swing count. Never in my time of playing FFXIV have I kicked anyone for a low damage parse. I am sure other people have at some point, but to me, parses are simply there to tell me how I can adjust to other players.

It all depends about which type of content we're talking about. Healer not doing much else except only healing once in a minute, as long as nobody in party is dying, in regular dungeon is tolerable. Actually it's tolerable in any content without enrage.xD Of course his dps contribution would be welcome, but hey, it's random person from duty finder, I don't know him and don't expect much, as long as he doesn't make it too hard for us. And dps loss from healer not dps'ing isn't that high anyway.

Motivation to improve must come from that person himself. You can't just force someone to 'git gud' if he don't wants to. I agree it would be nice if everyone would be capable of playing up to some standart, but let's try not to make that 'standart' too high, so that this game wouldn't become too serious and hardcore.