Letter to MR Yoshi: Why parses system is destroying the ffxiv world.

[Ultima]

All i can say on this topic is, that the community around more difficult content has become much more toxic with the emergence and spreading of parsers. It might be coincidence, maybe it was just that the popularity the game was gaining by then attracted those people, but it might also be due to parsers. Probably both.

Yeah, I'm gonna need you to provide some evidence before you start spewing toxic casual propaganda about the people who actually clear ex/savage/ultimate, I mean I know OP and several other people have made it easy to make it seem like you don't need evidence. But we live in a society and I'd like you to not disparage people who actually put in effort by blaming the existence of a tool that has done nothing but promote the growth and development of player skill and gameplay.

[SargentToughie]

But if you want a hint to the issue, just have a look at the tank forum. All most of the tanks in the forum nowadays care about is their personal DPS number, and everyone else is supposed to do everything they can for them to achieve it. Leave the stress to the healers, have the DPS deal with enmity or let them die, because tank DPS is the only thing that's important. Let everyone else deal with mistakes someone makes, but leave the tanks alone, they are concentrating on DPS, a few extra aggro combos or tank stance are not possible, they lower tank DPS..

Hi! Ex tank main checking in.

The reason tanks are focusing so heavily on DPS is because without optimising their damage output, the gameplay loop for tanks is boring as sin. Additionally, there is absolutely no outgoing damage in all of Savage that actually necessitates Tank Stance mitigation, so long as the tanks make intelligent usage of their cooldown abilities. Yes, this does include Warriors getting rocked to 1 HP with Holmgang, and using healer CDs like Excog, Essential, or just Bene to get them back up. From a tank perspective: Sitting in tank stance DOES make you an active detriment to your team in higher levels, because you're literally leaving 1000+ DPS on the table for absolutely nothing, especially when so much of the tank skill ceiling is learning how to play around it.

Add on to that, you commented about how DPS need to deal with enmity because of it? DPS enmity management is so laughably, trivially easy that any DPS arguing against needing to use it may be actually trolling. Just push Diversion prior to pulling, and you've accomplished your mission. Dragoon, the Ranged DPS, and the Casters get bonus abilities that chop their enmity in half while giving them their resources back, or mobility in DRG's case. Not to mention that enmity in general is absolutely trivial to deal with anyway, if the tanks are using provoke/shirks even halfway responsibly.

And then there's also the healer perspective. I've done some off-raiding as a Scholar this patch cycle, and never once have I ever felt 'stressed out' by the tanks because of them sitting in DPS stance. Regens, shields on the busters, the fairy, and OGCDs are generally just about all I really need, and this is the first patch cycle that I've done anything even remotely challenging on healer. The only time that I ever feel "stressed out" when healing are when mechanics get screwed up, or people start dying. Oh, and both me and my co-healer do also find plenty of time to spam DPS as well, somehow, despite the tanks going DPS stance for pretty much the entire time outside of the initial pull.

So yeah, the tank playstyle was not a good choice for your example.

[Cheremia]

So...
Basically...
What you're telling me...

is that the game plays itself for me when i get a parser?
I never knew! Gotta go get one to never do stupid math in a game ever again!


Yes, this is sarcasm

[fumofu]

There are 2 kinds of PVE content in this game:

1.casual friendly - that's leveling and expert dungeons, 24 ppl raids, hunts, eureka, etc. Basically content which don't requires too much skill from players and therefore don't calls for parsers.

2.hardcore content - ranging from current ex trial to ultimate raid. This kind of content calls for high dps from every participating job, even tanks and healers. That's why we have 'stone, sea, sky'. That's our basic in-game dps check tool.

And important thing is that these 2 content types are equal.

Casual type PVE content isn't here just to prepare new players for end game raiding. That's what some raiders fail to understand, and that's the problem. When raider comes to any casual type of content with random players and expects them to play optimally - he creates problems, by trying to push his preferred optimal play style on players who might not even be interested in it. Like tank to refuses to use tank stance and do any aggro combos, cos 'dps loss' or 'other players should use their own emnity control tools'. Or healers who are more interesting in their own dps than in keeping party alive. That's how you make yourselves look toxic and elitist in the eyes of casual type players.

Hardcore content is a whole different story. That's where optimal play is required and parsers are essential tools for players who wishes to improve their skill in order to tackle endgame content. So,why there's still no in-game parser? Well, that's because Yoshi knows perfectly, that there will always be some talented and motivated individuals who will take upon themselves to solve this task. And here we have it. Unofficial parsers exists and are available for all PC users who wishes to use them. And that's kinda not fair for console players. Not sure what to make of that. But point is, if you're pc player and you need to use parser for raiding - it's cool, as long as you keep it where it belongs. In hardcore content. NOT in casual content.

To conclude: it's not parsers who are destroying the game, but raiders, who try to push their perfectionism to players who don't ask for it and to content which don't calls for it.

[Naryoril]

You talk about DPS enmity - what do you think DPS have those tools for? To just sit there and look pretty? Enmity is the responsibility of everyone, not just one role. Tanks have a DPS stance for a reason.

I never said the DPS should not use their enmity tools. I fully agree that it's everyone's responsibility. But if someone screws up (e.g. by not using their enmity tools) it's the tanks job to make up for their mistake regarding enmity, dealing with enmity is their primary job. As a healer has to heal people screwing up and getting hit by avoidable attacks. But lots of tanks here seem to think that everyone but them has to use their enmity tools. A tank letting a DPS die by neither using the aggro combo more often or a short visit to tank stance because a DPS didn't use their enmity tools is pushing all the responsibility on others, just to increase their personal DPS. The tank even drastically lowers the group's DPS by doing so. And yet, most people here applaud to that behaviour. See http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...nmity-controls
That's the kind of stuff i don't want to deal with anymore, and i think without the DPS number comparisons the issue wouldn't be nearly as prominent.

Btw: Tanks have a DPS stance so they are not slowed down too much when soloing/playing through the story.

fomofu just above is very on point with analyzing the issue. Use your parsers, they are helpful tools, but keep them and all that comes with them where they belong: in the current savage raid, the newest or two ex primals and ultimate content.


This is the last thing i'm going to say in this thread. It's the experience i have made playing this game on on off since the release of ARR, other people's might be different, and there is no convincing each other.

[AmeliaVerves]

Leave the stress to the healers, have the DPS deal with enmity

As a healer main I tell you it is not stressful to heal a tank in off-stance.
What really is stressful, is healing a party with people doing supbar dps so the fight is unnecessary long. Most of the time those DDs are also not very skilled in executing mechanics properly so this comes on top. Overly long fights with phases you haven't seen since week 1 + people taking avoidable damage.
No thanks, I'd rather take the skilled tank in DPS-Stance that deals a whole frekkin' lot of damage.

On top of that there is literally no class in the game that has no utility to decrease their enmity. Why should people refuse to use those skills?!

To conclude: it's not parsers who are destroying the game, but raiders, who try to push their perfectionism to players who don't ask for it and to content which don't calls for it.

So what's with the "casual palyers" that start raiding or just enter those fights for fun and destroy "our" game by not meeting the minimum skill needed to clear the "hardcore" fights of the game?
I fail to see that this is a oneway road and the raiders are the bad ones here.

[24spencer]

To conclude: it's not parsers who are destroying the game, but raiders, who try to push their perfectionism to players who don't ask for it and to content which don't calls for it.

there is a distinct difference between expecting people to perform 95%ile dps in a dungeon and expecting people to know how to at least keep their gcd rolling and read tooltips. It's one thing to sit in tank stance for an entire fight but to then use literally only your aggro combo and nothing else is just indefensibly lazy. Can people stop treating playing properly like it's some kind of horrible elitist unachievable thing?

Btw: Tanks have a DPS stance so they are not slowed down too much when soloing/playing through the story.

this is actually the worst take in the entire thread. pretty impressive considering you're competing for that spot against someone who claimed that reading guides is tantamount to datamining.

[Yeol]

if anything, Gordias Savage should be the one pointed to as being at fault, since that was the raid tier that completely changed the raid scene as we know it, and where a lot of the current optimization playstyle choices were bred from.

YES.

Looking back at Gordias, it doesn't seem too bad since now we have Ultimate. Which by the way is on demand from top players who now understand the game much better than they did before.

The mentality of optimizing and keeping up-time is more common now than in the past. Some are moving forward and getting better at the game.

To conclude: it's not parsers who are destroying the game, but raiders, who try to push their perfectionism to players who don't ask for it and to content which don't calls for it.

Raider are the ones that give most to the community. They try to understand game mechanics and share it with the rest of us. Find the best openers/rotations and write guides about them. Also, they are willing to answer questions.

No one is asking you to play like top players. They just want you to know the basics and preform at an average level. What you see in DF/PF is way below average my friend.

[SinisterJoints]

To conclude: it's not parsers who are destroying the game, but raiders, who try to push their perfectionism to players who don't ask for it and to content which don't calls for it.

It's just toxic people in general. Raiders and NonRaiders alike good sir.

there is a distinct difference between expecting people to perform 95%ile dps in a dungeon and expecting people to know how to at least keep their gcd rolling and read tooltips. It's one thing to sit in tank stance for an entire fight but to then use literally only your aggro combo and nothing else is just indefensibly lazy. Can people stop treating playing properly like it's some kind of horrible elitist unachievable thing?

.

Also, this. Just because people want others to at least make an effort doesn't mean we expect them to have hardcore raider dps.

I never said the DPS should not use their enmity tools. I fully agree that it's everyone's responsibility. But if someone screws up (e.g. by not using their enmity tools) it's the tanks job to make up for their mistake regarding enmity, dealing with enmity is their primary job. As a healer has to heal people screwing up and getting hit by avoidable attacks. But lots of tanks here seem to think that everyone but them has to use their enmity tools. A tank letting a DPS die by neither using the aggro combo more often or a short visit to tank stance because a DPS didn't use their enmity tools is pushing all the responsibility on others, just to increase their personal DPS. The tank even drastically lowers the group's DPS by doing so. And yet, most people here applaud to that behaviour. See http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...nmity-controls
That's the kind of stuff i don't want to deal with anymore, and i think without the DPS number comparisons the issue wouldn't be nearly as prominent.

Also this.

[Aylis]

No one is asking you to play like top players. They just want you to know the basics and preform at an average level. What you see in DF/PF is way below average my friend.

Exactly!

I wish more understood that playing perfectly and playing competently are not the same thing. No one expects everyone in DF/PF to be perfect game play wise and with perfect max level min-maxed gear. Just a grasp of basic rotations, class knowledge and knowing what their abilities are and do.