So about Summoner...

[Wilbow]

It's damage output is about equal to SMN WITH our utility factored in.

No, that's patently false. It's about equal before. BLM has a 30 DPS lead at the 90th percentile in savage. SMN utility is considerably more than 30 DPS.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

Whereas you, for the past few pages, instead of bringing this quote up, have just been saying "It hasn't been changed, the elites say it doesn't need changed, therefore it doesn't need changed." Then lo and behold I find one of Jump saying that somebody suggested a change he would like.

For clarity, my own post from the same discord https://gyazo.com/ebd27e8c2ad9a9ca718cf44660e2dc0c

I've acknowledged the same issue for a long time (quite a few people have), but that's not a direct "buff" change. That's just a mechanical change to the rotation that would indirectly buff RDM's damage by a bit. When people here are asking for damage buffs, I highly doubt this is what they were referring to.

[Capn_Goggles]

I've acknowledged the same issue for a long time (quite a few people have), but that's not a direct "buff" change. That's just a mechanical change to the rotation that would indirectly buff RDM's damage by a bit. When people here are asking for damage buffs, I highly doubt this is what they were referring to.

That's a cop-out answer, but also one that manages to be presumptive and self-gratifying at the same time. The complaints toward RDM's performance were about its competitiveness at higher levels of optimization and skill, a situation in which alteration to its rotation to align with raid cooldowns presents a direct buff to its damage output, but you've taken it upon yourself to presume that it's really potency buffs they're after.

[Maero]

No, that's patently false. It's about equal before. BLM has a 30 DPS lead at the 90th percentile in savage. SMN utility is considerably more than 30 DPS.

Exactly this ^
Smn output is almost the same as blm before utilities factored in.

[Sunako]

Damage is not really problem with BLM. BLM can do like 700 more dps on dummy than SMN. Problem is that BLM not have any party synergy, majority of players can not keep their uptime on 100% and they lack party utility.

Edit: My idea would be let BLM stack more than 1 foul(like 3 fouls) and make it instant cast. That would help both casual players and hardcore players. You could save the bursts for party utility like trick attack, it would be easier save aoe damage for add phase and would boost mobility + easier weave ogcds. Another thing blm need imo is 1 foul stack before match start. BLM opener is really lackluster because they have to wait first 30 sec before foul is ready and at that point all opener buffs are already gone. I think there should be the way gain 1 foul stack before match start. Utility would be if manaward would be aoe shield that absorb like 15% damage from partymembers and 30% self.

[Nemekh]

Exactly this ^
Smn output is almost the same as blm before utilities factored in.

I question your definition of "almost the same". Not to mention that cross comparing percentiles in such a way ignores the fact that things are not being compared fairly.

[Wayfinder3]

This is kinda getting out of hand. RDM mains put down your pitch forks because he’s right for the most part.

RDM being balanced around verraise sucks but it does allow healthy synergy between all 3 casters which is the big picture. Yes SMN gets to be the lucky child but it’s STILL balanced. If you’re angry that casters have to fight for a slot. That’s fine, but to say casters aren’t balanced is wrong. Verraise is powerful, it’s a tool that allows you to “see” more mechanics even if you wipe. (Nobody mentioned this). I understand you guys want change but, the change you’re asking for is only going to put SMN and BLM in the same position we’re supposedly in. I’ve even mention that a change I’d like is for manafiation to give 3 free enchanted gcds because RDM burst windows are too inconsistent. How about we talk about that, is it a bad idea or a good one. Getting angry at one guy for stating what’s basically the truth isn’t going to help RDM.

[Dualgunner]

Verraise is powerful, it’s a tool that allows you to “see” more mechanics even if you wipe. (Nobody mentioned this)..

This is a tool that's only so useful though, and its use can be just as easily overblown as it can be underappreciated. Also, within the last page I bring up a potential change I would like to see that is along the same lines as your own suggestion, that being a cooldown ability for RDM to better line up their burst windows with the party's.

[Wayfinder3]

Another thing that should be mentioned is that, I believe it’s fine if you want to ask for buffs to make RDM a meta option, nothing wrong with people wanting their mains to be the best. I know many players who stick with a job in its lows and watched as some of those jobs even became meta options. PLD/SMN since HW. Lets be patient and see what the future has, SMN is meta today but tomorrow it could be RDM or, BLM or, SMN can continue to reign supreme. Alternatively, none of them could be meta and it wouldn't be the first time.

[Wayfinder3]

This is a tool that's only so useful though, and its use can be just as easily overblown as it can be underappreciated.

Yes but you can’t give appropriate value to something based off of how niche it is. Verraise can work in or out of prog and this should be balanced around the idea of raising players with the greatest of ease. You can go into detail about mp but there are tools on other jobs that they’re balanced around to handle that. RDM is a victim of its utility, ask for them to remove it. Then RDM becomes a great value SMN or vice versa. A lot people like to pin verraise as a curse which it is but it’s also the only thing keeping the job relevant and, the casters relatively balanced.

i'll give an example, $25 in paper money is generally better than $25 worth of pennies however, thats only because of how convenient it is but, the $25 worth of pennies is still equivalent to $25 dollars in cash and thus demands respect regardless of how cumbersome or flawed it actually is to use $25 worth of pennies so, the value is the same but it's just less efficient. This is essentially rdm out of progression, it's less efficient and loses some value in that right but it can still function the exact same way and situations where it could work are still applicable unless you're speed killing where resurrection is completely irrelevant.

If RDM gets a buff and loses verraise or it is changed to function as a normal rez spell and it's not stronger than SMN. Do you honestly believe the job will be better off, if so. then what of SMN since these 2 jobs will now officially have the same EXACT niche. Verraise gives the job an identity because nobody is speed killing with SMN because it can rez and, it's illogical to attribute rez in a speed killing enviorment as the reason for why SMN is better than RDM in that enviroment. The only way verraise can be completely worthless is if you're in an environment where death in general is unacceptable and the only time that happens is during speed killing and, thats only applicable to less than 1% of the player base. This is pretty much what xxPheNoMeNais trying to say. RDM's do have powerful utility, it's just not the utility that some want and thus should ask for something indicative of that, not nerfing SMN or overbuffing RDM