So about Summoner...

[xxPheNoMeNa]

In my opinion, this still doesn’t really excuse the fact that RDM is so weak in terms of personal DPS with questionable utility to try and “make it up” in rDPS contribution. Verraise’s utility goes away with prog, and Embolden is laughably weak if you look at it compared to the others. Yet, it’s weaker than an equally skilled BRD, who is one of the kings of utility. RDMs don’t have to conform to a “speedkill meta mindset” to want their job to offer more—be it in utility or personal damage.

Yes, verraise loses value in OPTIMIZED RAIDING, but it still "exists" for everything outside of that... RDM is still borderline OP for raid progression (and any form of casual content) BECAUSE that raise utility exists. People need to understand the overall value their class actually holds, as well as accept the fact that not every class is designed to be of "equal" value to each other for every aspect of the game.

[HyoMinPark]

Yes, verraise loses value in OPTIMIZED RAIDING, but it still "exists" for everything outside of that... RDM is still borderline OP for raid progression (and any form of casual content) BECAUSE that raise utility exists. People need to understand the overall value their class actually holds, as well as accept the fact that not every class is designed to be of "equal" value to each other for every aspect of the game.

It’s not “optimized raiding” when people stop dying—that’s just a byproduct of learning the fights enough to not fail mechanics or heal checks. A group can clear content with zero deaths and be far from “optimized”. SE has already shown that they’ve failed with the “selfish DPS” job balance, and they have failed just as much by this “niche value” that RDM seems to have: a value that goes away the minute people stop dying. And, as Dualgunner already said, SMN is still better for prog.

I don’t see anything wrong with all jobs having equal or close to equal balance. And as I already said in response to someone else who said RDM has it’s own niche in content (PotD), jobs shouldn’t be balanced around niches like that, nor should they be balanced around the lowest common denominator.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

It’s not “optimized raiding” when people stop dying—that’s just a byproduct of learning the fights enough to not fail mechanics or heal checks. A group can clear content with zero deaths and be far from “optimized”. SE has already shown that they’ve failed with the “selfish DPS” job balance, and they have failed just as much by this “niche value” that RDM seems to have: a value that goes away the minute people stop dying. And, as Dualgunner already said, SMN is still better for prog.

How many groups can clear a fight within one pull, cleanly, every single week? But regardless, what is "forcing" you into SMN beyond that? Savage content doesn't lock you into a caster like Ultima does, you can reasonably play with any composition. You can easily bring double ranged which is still argued by some for speedrunning purposes. The only purposes where SMN matters are for what I mentioned earlier, the 1% of optimized play (and funnily enough, SMN still isn't seen 100% of the time even at our level). Some world prog groups for Ultima still brought RDM and cleared with it, and for speedrun meta SMN is only a confirmed lock for 2 fights this tier right now (monk being better for 2 fights and mch is questionable for the last)

I don’t see anything wrong with all jobs having equal or close to equal balance. And as I already said in response to someone else who said RDM has it’s own niche in content (PotD), jobs shouldn’t be balanced around niches like that, nor should they be balanced around the lowest common denominator.

Balanced compared to "what" though? Because what I'm getting from threads like this, is that the community wants classes to be balanced around their skill level rather than what these classes are capable of at the highest level of play (which is the true example of how strong or weak a class can be). Do people understand that "buffing" RDM or nerfing SMN would actually create another balance issue? Because RDM would be absolutely overpowered for progression as it was during deltascape... and so long as it holds the raise and heal utility that it has, it will NEVER have similar damage output to classes like SMN or BLM nor should it. Instead of complaining about "SMN being too strong" (which it isnt btw), people should be asking for a class rework for RDM because frankly the issue is the class itself and what they attempted to do with it.

[Kabooa]

How many groups can clear a fight within one pull, cleanly, every single week?

While you're not wrong, on the flip side, having glaring disparities in kits for no actual advantage in another area is a sore point for a job, and shoring up those inequities shouldn't be discarded just because "it's viable".

Viability is a poor metric in a game where the the bar is set relatively low.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

While you're not wrong, on the flip side, having glaring disparities in kits for no actual advantage in another area is a sore point for a job, and shoring up those inequities shouldn't be discarded just because "it's viable".

But people continuously overlook (or simply dont understand) what the advantages of each class are and rather say "but look at parses, RDM is useless after prog", even though those numbers are meaningless for them personally. RDM still has a very clear advantage for progression raiding, and as a whole the balance between casters is relatively ok. Some of the very best RDM players (including Jump) continue to say RDM is in a good place and it has its role.

[Wayfinder3]

But people continuously overlook (or simply dont understand) what the advantages of each class are and rather say "but look at parses, RDM is useless after prog", even though those numbers are meaningless for them personally. RDM still has a very clear advantage for progression raiding, and as a whole the balance between casters is relatively ok. Some of the very best RDM players (including Jump) continue to say RDM is in a good place and it has its role.

I think the problem is that even though, RDM has it's advantages, SMN is really just a jack of all trades. rdm is strong for progression, however it's not so strong that it dominates the prog scene which is good because we don't want jobs monopolizing anything. SMN seems oppressive because it's the best caster in FARM by the "communities" standards while still being a very solid choice for prog too.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

SMN seems oppressive because it's the best caster in FARM by the "communities" standards while still being a very solid choice for prog too.

And this is a community issue. People need to really understand how these classes compare to one another. The balance between BLM and SMN for example is very good imo. The problem however is that it's extremely difficult to play BLM optimally, so generally it "looks" like BLM isn't as good when in fact it's very close. Ultimate content is the only case where I would argue playing BLM would actually be true disadvantage. But a lot players would only say "BLM has no utility and SMN buffs my damage, BLM is bad". Then you have RDM and yes their damage is way off the face of the earth compared to the other 2 casters, but they also bring this special utility that is literally unmatched by anything else in the game.

And this goes back to my point about these "advantages" not mattering for 99% of the community. I've never heard speedrunning or world prog groups (including my own) complaining about the strength of Summoner and these are the only two instances where this would even matter. If you're not bleeding edge optimizing, there's nothing stopping you from playing RDM.

[Kabooa]

But people continuously overlook (or simply dont understand) what the advantages of each class are and rather say "but look at parses, RDM is useless after prog".

I mean, technically it is. Summoners cover emergency raises while simply doing more damage and having no limitation on range for outputting their full damage, making them more flexible. Once the raise isn't needed, Red Mage is inferior in basically all respects. Sure, the best red mages still leave me in the dust, but that's not a Mage v Mage thing. That's a me thing. That doesn't mean Red Mage is better than I think it is.

It objectively shouldn't lose value the better a party gets. It is the only job where this happens.

That's all. If the raise is the reason that can't happen, I'd rather scrap it, or just make it a proper emergency raise and compensate them for the loss of Verraise.

Butlikethat'sjustmyopinionman.jpeg

[xxPheNoMeNa]

I mean, technically it is. Summoners cover emergency raises while simply doing more damage and having no limitation on range for outputting their full damage, making them more flexible. Once the raise isn't needed, Red Mage is inferior in basically all respects. Sure, the best red mages still leave me in the dust, but that's not a Mage v Mage thing. That's a me thing. That doesn't mean Red Mage is better than I think it is.

It objectively shouldn't lose value the better a party gets. It is the only job where this happens.

That's all. If the raise is the reason that can't happen, I'd rather scrap it, or just make it a proper emergency raise and compensate them for the loss of Verraise.

Butlikethat'sjustmyopinionman.jpeg

We can cover emergency raises if we have swiftcast. We're very limited in that aspect and outside of progression, we tend to use swiftcast offensively for optimizing rotations (pet swaps, etc), so our raise is kinda bad in that aspect. Without swiftcast, we lose far more raising than RDM does, and RDM can raise multiple times in quick succession.

Now beyond that, yes RDM loses a lot of value after progression when you don't "need" to raise as such. But it's not the "only" class that loses value after progression. WHM loses most of its value after progression, yet (well until these last AST buffs) people would agree that healer balance was in a good place even though AST was preferable for optimized settings. DRK can be great value in very specific situations, yet generally is disregarded over PLD because of its inferiority to mitigation like Cover or Veil. Pretty much every class in the game has its "niche" where it's extremely useful, and then a few that remain powerful. You're forgetting that BLM just dumpsters RDM AND SMN in terms of personal damage output, SMN only has the damage utility to bring it neck and neck in overall raid contribution.

And yes, the raise utility RDM has is why it won't (and shouldn't) receive damage buffs, because in one aspect of the game it would be absolutely overpowered if that happened.

[Wayfinder3]

Balanced compared to "what" though? Because what I'm getting from threads like this, is that the community wants classes to be balanced around their skill level rather than what these classes are capable of at the highest level of play (which is the true example of how strong or weak a class can be). Do people understand that "buffing" RDM or nerfing SMN would actually create another balance issue? Because RDM would be absolutely overpowered for progression as it was during deltascape... and so long as it holds the raise and heal utility that it has, it will NEVER have similar damage output to classes like SMN or BLM nor should it. Instead of complaining about "SMN being too strong" (which it isnt btw), people should be asking for a class rework for RDM because frankly the issue is the class itself and what they attempted to do with it.

I agree with this, though without all the sass. it's definitely true, rdm can't be buffed in anyway that'll be satisfying and nerfing SMN will only make MCH better for that 4th slot. SMN is the strongest caster all around but it isn't the strongest Job in the game, BRD and arguably DRG are alot closer to this with brd being a strong core for many teams and drg being their best possible support.