So about Summoner...

[xxPheNoMeNa]

I don't really understand this "idea" that Summoner is just "crazy OP" compared to other classes, and this raid tier has been the first in a very long time where multiple team comps can be viable. Furthermore, I'm continuously lost how people are blindly just mentioning "numbers" and attempting to make comparisons without understanding the true context behind those numbers, or lack a complete understanding of the class to make sense of them.

"Look at how strong Radiant Shield is!" >Pulls a log from o6s

Do you understand WHY Radiant Shield is strong in that fight specifically? Or understand that while it can be extremely strong in one fight, it can be nearly useless in another? (Ultima phase hello??)

Nonetheless, people need to stop worrying about "speedkill" meta when 99.9% of the playerbase doesn't take part in it. Unless you're actually at the top 1% where optimizing this heavily matters, then "meta" is honestly irrelevant excluding some considerations for progression.

[HyoMinPark]

Nonetheless, people need to stop worrying about "speedkill" meta when 99.9% of the playerbase doesn't take part in it. Unless you're actually at the top 1% where optimizing this heavily matters, then "meta" is honestly irrelevant excluding some considerations for progression.

In my opinion, this still doesn’t really excuse the fact that RDM is so weak in terms of personal DPS with questionable utility to try and “make it up” in rDPS contribution. Verraise’s utility goes away with prog, and Embolden is laughably weak if you look at it compared to the others. Yet, it’s weaker than an equally skilled BRD, who is one of the kings of utility. RDMs don’t have to conform to a “speedkill meta mindset” to want their job to offer more—be it in utility or personal damage.

RDM on the other hand is a victim of its own kit. Everyone wants to say RDM damage is so low but did anyone forget that it has the most overpowered raise utility in the game??? Did anyone forget that it has one of the most simplest rotations in the game, and can be played reasonably well with hardly any effort???

Verraise goes away with prog—once you start consistently clearing a fight with zero deaths, that utility is dead. Compare that to the other rBuffs, which never become flat out useless (unless you have a MNK in a triple-caster setting, but even then the tanks still benefit from Brotherhood, which is better than no one “benefiting” from Verraise).

Rotational complexity is a moot point—the developers have flat out said they balance personal DPS with utility, not based on how complex or simple a job is to play. RDM has less utility than other “utility jobs” (this includes SMN), and less personal DPS.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

In my opinion, this still doesn’t really excuse the fact that RDM is so weak in terms of personal DPS with questionable utility to try and “make it up” in rDPS contribution. Verraise’s utility goes away with prog, and Embolden is laughably weak if you look at it compared to the others. Yet, it’s weaker than an equally skilled BRD, who is one of the kings of utility. RDMs don’t have to conform to a “speedkill meta mindset” to want their job to offer more—be it in utility or personal damage.

Yes, verraise loses value in OPTIMIZED RAIDING, but it still "exists" for everything outside of that... RDM is still borderline OP for raid progression (and any form of casual content) BECAUSE that raise utility exists. People need to understand the overall value their class actually holds, as well as accept the fact that not every class is designed to be of "equal" value to each other for every aspect of the game.

[HyoMinPark]

Yes, verraise loses value in OPTIMIZED RAIDING, but it still "exists" for everything outside of that... RDM is still borderline OP for raid progression (and any form of casual content) BECAUSE that raise utility exists. People need to understand the overall value their class actually holds, as well as accept the fact that not every class is designed to be of "equal" value to each other for every aspect of the game.

It’s not “optimized raiding” when people stop dying—that’s just a byproduct of learning the fights enough to not fail mechanics or heal checks. A group can clear content with zero deaths and be far from “optimized”. SE has already shown that they’ve failed with the “selfish DPS” job balance, and they have failed just as much by this “niche value” that RDM seems to have: a value that goes away the minute people stop dying. And, as Dualgunner already said, SMN is still better for prog.

I don’t see anything wrong with all jobs having equal or close to equal balance. And as I already said in response to someone else who said RDM has it’s own niche in content (PotD), jobs shouldn’t be balanced around niches like that, nor should they be balanced around the lowest common denominator.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

It’s not “optimized raiding” when people stop dying—that’s just a byproduct of learning the fights enough to not fail mechanics or heal checks. A group can clear content with zero deaths and be far from “optimized”. SE has already shown that they’ve failed with the “selfish DPS” job balance, and they have failed just as much by this “niche value” that RDM seems to have: a value that goes away the minute people stop dying. And, as Dualgunner already said, SMN is still better for prog.

How many groups can clear a fight within one pull, cleanly, every single week? But regardless, what is "forcing" you into SMN beyond that? Savage content doesn't lock you into a caster like Ultima does, you can reasonably play with any composition. You can easily bring double ranged which is still argued by some for speedrunning purposes. The only purposes where SMN matters are for what I mentioned earlier, the 1% of optimized play (and funnily enough, SMN still isn't seen 100% of the time even at our level). Some world prog groups for Ultima still brought RDM and cleared with it, and for speedrun meta SMN is only a confirmed lock for 2 fights this tier right now (monk being better for 2 fights and mch is questionable for the last)

I don’t see anything wrong with all jobs having equal or close to equal balance. And as I already said in response to someone else who said RDM has it’s own niche in content (PotD), jobs shouldn’t be balanced around niches like that, nor should they be balanced around the lowest common denominator.

Balanced compared to "what" though? Because what I'm getting from threads like this, is that the community wants classes to be balanced around their skill level rather than what these classes are capable of at the highest level of play (which is the true example of how strong or weak a class can be). Do people understand that "buffing" RDM or nerfing SMN would actually create another balance issue? Because RDM would be absolutely overpowered for progression as it was during deltascape... and so long as it holds the raise and heal utility that it has, it will NEVER have similar damage output to classes like SMN or BLM nor should it. Instead of complaining about "SMN being too strong" (which it isnt btw), people should be asking for a class rework for RDM because frankly the issue is the class itself and what they attempted to do with it.

[Kabooa]

How many groups can clear a fight within one pull, cleanly, every single week?

While you're not wrong, on the flip side, having glaring disparities in kits for no actual advantage in another area is a sore point for a job, and shoring up those inequities shouldn't be discarded just because "it's viable".

Viability is a poor metric in a game where the the bar is set relatively low.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

While you're not wrong, on the flip side, having glaring disparities in kits for no actual advantage in another area is a sore point for a job, and shoring up those inequities shouldn't be discarded just because "it's viable".

But people continuously overlook (or simply dont understand) what the advantages of each class are and rather say "but look at parses, RDM is useless after prog", even though those numbers are meaningless for them personally. RDM still has a very clear advantage for progression raiding, and as a whole the balance between casters is relatively ok. Some of the very best RDM players (including Jump) continue to say RDM is in a good place and it has its role.

[Wayfinder3]

Balanced compared to "what" though? Because what I'm getting from threads like this, is that the community wants classes to be balanced around their skill level rather than what these classes are capable of at the highest level of play (which is the true example of how strong or weak a class can be). Do people understand that "buffing" RDM or nerfing SMN would actually create another balance issue? Because RDM would be absolutely overpowered for progression as it was during deltascape... and so long as it holds the raise and heal utility that it has, it will NEVER have similar damage output to classes like SMN or BLM nor should it. Instead of complaining about "SMN being too strong" (which it isnt btw), people should be asking for a class rework for RDM because frankly the issue is the class itself and what they attempted to do with it.

I agree with this, though without all the sass. it's definitely true, rdm can't be buffed in anyway that'll be satisfying and nerfing SMN will only make MCH better for that 4th slot. SMN is the strongest caster all around but it isn't the strongest Job in the game, BRD and arguably DRG are alot closer to this with brd being a strong core for many teams and drg being their best possible support.

[HyoMinPark]

Because what I'm getting from threads like this, is that the community wants classes to be balanced around their skill level rather than what these classes are capable of at the highest level of play (which is the true example of how strong or weak a class can be).

Then you haven’t been reading the threads I read: the threads I read advocate for balancing jobs at the 1%, not around the most casual of play. As it stands now, the developers do not balance jobs around Savage/Ultimate, but around every day content. Which is why some jobs struggle in Savage where utility is considered important in groups that want utility. I believe that even a few people posting in this thread said that jobs should be balanced around Savage content, not MSQ and dungeons.

You also missed where RDM mains have been asking to have Verraise removed and/or nerfed, as well as potencies for RDM reworked so that they are competitive personal damage-wise. There have also been talks about reworking Embolden. I suggest you go back and read some of these casters wars threads.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

Then you haven’t been reading the threads I read: the threads I read advocate for balancing jobs at the 1%, not around the most casual of play. As it stands now, the developers do not balance jobs around Savage/Ultimate, but around every day content. Which is why some jobs struggle in Savage where utility is considered important in groups that want utility. I believe that even a few people posting in this thread said that jobs should be balanced around Savage content, not MSQ and dungeons.

I don't typically read those threads because it's usually stuff like what this thread was made out to be. Claiming SMN was just the 2nd highest DPS class in the game (fundamentally wrong statement) and people agreeing with it. One person even saying "SMN is the strongest class in the game for me". That's EXACTLY the kind of perception that needs to stop because it's flat out wrong. SMN is a very strong class, but it is still beaten by at least 3 classes in terms of personal damage output and several in terms of overall raid contribution (personal + utility) at that top 1% level. It just so happens to have "good" personal damage with enough raid utility to make it a very strong choice.

The perception that I think exists however, is that SMN is just an "easier" class to play over BLM for example. Numbers wise, the two classes are extremely close to overall output, but BLM is a far more difficult class to play due to how punishing it is if you're subpar at the class. So SMN "appears" stronger because players can be subpar at it, but aren't as heavily punished for it and their numbers end up being higher. MCH is also a neck and neck race with SMN still.

You also missed where RDM mains have been asking to have Verraise removed and/or nerfed, as well as potencies for RDM reworked so that they are competitive personal damage-wise

Which RDM mains? Because I hear players like Jump or Howard talk about how RDM is fine where it is and doesn't need any significant buffs and these are two of the best RDM players out there (I don't know if they post on these forums though). These are players who play the class at that very top .01% and they're saying the class is ok. It's the lower end who seems upset that RDM is being disregarded (and wrongfully so) by the community based on some false perceptions. Now "if" SE were to buff RDM then yes they would need to remove their raise utility to balance things out, but that's assuming SE is even willing to entertain that idea.