DPS who do 4k worth of damage = garbage tier

[HoodRat]

With all of this arguing about DPS numbers/parsers, I wish we had more Ifrit, Ramuh, and Leviathan EXs to punish too much DPS. Heck, I'll add the Haukke Manor Hard Mode's Halicarnassus fight to the mix.

I believe they fall more into the category of poorly coded fights instead of punishment for too much damage. The latter doesn't really even make sense tbh. "How dare our players be too good?"

[Lunaxia]

ok.

There were also people who understood what you meant perfectly, but far be it from me to deny anyone self-flagellation. I think your perception of this is a bit extreme, though.

[Dualgunner]

Scenarios I'm not talking about, yes.

There's your problem right there, you just don't want to talk about the parts of the conversation where you're wrong. They don't go away just because you're "not talking about them."

Again, I did not refer to you.

Of every possible person to pick to respond to, because I'm certainly one of many you could have chosen to quote and talk about using aggro as a measure of DPS, you picked me. You specifically picked me, to respond to me mimicking somebody for being condescending and full of themselves, to tell me specifically you thought they were not the condescending one.

So yes. You were very much referring to me here.

EDIT: Relevant

Wow...you seriously don't know how?

Yeah..I'm just gonna sit back and watch you figure that one out.

Last thing I want to do is give you guys more ammo.

*Moves on*


EDIT: OK ill give you a hint. Tanks rely on this very heavily.....at least they should.

The post I responded to.

Don't need a parser to read the condescending smugness here, wowie.

My post.

...you're joking, right? There's a lot of "condescending smugness" going on here, and I'm not looking at them.

You responding, saying you see "condescending smugness" and it's not Neph; the implication is I'm the smug one, which I am, because I'm mimicking the tone of their post.

Also did you read their post, which I mimicked? Maybe you picked up a different tone than I did but "Wow...you seriously don't know how?", "Yeah..I'm just gonna sit back and watch you figure that one out." and "EDIT: OK ill give you a hint. Tanks rely on this very heavily.....at least they should." absolutely bloody reek of smugness.

My original response to you.

And I did. I didn't find it nearly as grating at some other posts I've seen.

The implication here, for the audience who may be reading this, is that my post was one of those posts you found grating. In fact, of all the posts you supposedly found grating, you responded to mine, so mine either grated you especially hard or was the straw that broke the camel's back, either way the implication is my post grated you.

Yet you found my post, which was a mimic of theirs, grating. Alrighty, you and I will have to agree to disagree here.

Me again.

Again, I did not refer to you.

Yet somehow you're gonna pretend you weren't referring to me. That worked once, because it was true. It doesn't work when it very blatantly is not.

Unfortunately there aren't fflogs for Kugane Castle, so you'll have to pardon me and use an ounce of common sense there. If you believe otherwise, I envy you the parties you've been in.

HoodRat kind of served you there, but beyond that, you haven't responded that the aggro table is relational. This means, if both DPS are trash, then the aggro will show up similar to if they're both good.

My definition of garbage is garbage, yes. Shocking, isn't it? If we're talking high DPS vs bad DPS, the gap caused by the enmity reducer is soon covered, especially in the case of a 10 minute or so long fight.

No, your definition of garbage is braindead. If aggro tools aren't good enough, then the lower DPS is either AFK, semi AFK, so utterly bad at this game they cannot muster complete combos, or they're outclassed as far as gear goes. Which, again, doesn't cover if both DPS are bad or both DPS are good, seeing as the aggro gauge is a relational measure, and no I'm not gonna stop bringing it up because you consistently haven't answered it.

[RokkuEkkusu]

I believe they fall more into the category of poorly coded fights instead of punishment for too much damage. The latter doesn't really even make sense tbh. "How dare our players be too good?"

You'd think SE would fix these so-called "poorly coded" fights after all these years. I guess not. So it must be working as intended.

[Dualgunner]

You'd think SE would fix these so-called "poorly coded" fights after all these years. I guess not. So it must be working as intended.

No, you wouldn't. They don't generally go back and work through these poorly coded fights, see Byakko Tank LB3 strat and Warrior Ghost Cheese strat for more recent examples of fight mechanics the devs have not and will not fix.

To backend this logic back on you, you'd think if SE liked making fights like that they'd have kept going instead of stopping in ARR. They must be making fights as intended.

[mosaicex]

With all of this arguing about DPS numbers/parsers, I wish we had more Ifrit, Ramuh, and Leviathan EXs to punish too much DPS. Heck, I'll add the Haukke Manor Hard Mode's Halicarnassus fight to the mix.

Ifrit, yes due to Nail explosion debuff, but Nail itself is also DPS check, the fight just asked you to be smart about it.
Leviathan and Ramuh, not so much.
Levi EX has direct DPS check on Spume and Wavetooth.
Ramuh will wipe you if you didn't kill all the adds in time.
Hell you can even add Sephirot EX and his adds to the list.
They punish stupidity and tunnel visioning.
Same goes for Haukke HM's boss too. Doing too little DPS on the add, failing to kill it, will allow the boss to absorb her and wipe the party all the same.

Most of them absolutely didn't punish players from doing too much DPS, just ones that put them in the wrong place at the wrong time. But of course none of this will be too obvious to someone who had only done the fight unsynced.

[Lunaxia]

There's your problem right there/

You keep reiterating about aggro tools, which I've talked about. I'm not sure what else I'm missing.

pls

I picked you because you made a point about condescension that I wanted to respond to, while also quoting the poster my own post was referencing. I was not addressing you personally, as much as you'd like to think so. By "here" I meant this thread, not your response.

snip.

If you're in a dungeon with two trash DPS, you won't even need to consult the aggro table because you will immediately know it, so it renders the point moot.

If aggro tools aren't good enough, then the lower DPS is either AFK, semi AFK, so utterly bad at this game they cannot muster complete combos, or they're outclassed as far as gear goes.

anecdotalevidence.jpg

You seem to be using dungeons as evidence now, which... is almost entirely meaningless as far as content goes, but all right. I don't get the point you're trying to make though. If both DPS are good or bad, the need to see who is the better or worse becomes irrelevant.

[Dualgunner]

You keep reiterating about aggro tools, which I've talked about. I'm not sure what else I'm missing.

"There are scenarios where you're wrong."
"Those aren't the scenarios I'm talking about."
"There's your problem, you need to consider all scenarios."
"You keep reiterating about aggro tools, which I've talked about. I'm not sure what else I'm missing."
Obviously, the scenarios where the aggro meter is not a good measure of performance. IE: Both are good, both are bad, somebody died, multiple people died, aggro manipulation tools, all four are good, all four are bad.

I picked you because you made a point about condescension that I wanted to respond to, while also quoting the poster my own post was referencing. I was not addressing you personally, as much as you'd like to think so. By "here" I meant this thread, not your response.

As much as you're trying to backpedal, the fact is, based exactly on what you typed, and how this conversation evolved, you were talking to me.

If you're in a dungeon with two trash DPS, you won't even need to consult the aggro table because you will immediately know it, so it renders the point moot.

All along, all I said was that the aggro meter is a bad tool to try and read DPS and performance. If you're going to all that extra effort to see every shadewalker, smokescreen, and diversion you can get a better read on somebody's performance by just looking at their buffs and the boss' debuffs than you ever would looking at an aggro meter. It's more accurate too, because you don't have to account for the fact that the only time the aggro meter will show you people's performance differences reliably is in a very extreme and fringe example.

anecdotalevidence.jpg

Oh please. Don't you even lol, I made a generalized statement based on the tools that are available, and the level of performance needed to make those tools moot. There was no personal experience used in that quoted bit whatsoever. But good try trying to call fallacies.

You seem to be using dungeons as evidence now, which... is almost entirely meaningless as far as content goes, but all right. I don't get the point you're trying to make though. If both DPS are good or bad, the need to see who is the better or worse becomes irrelevant.

First off, I'm speaking in general terms, as this is applicable in four man or eight man content.
Second: When was this discussion about finding out who's better as a DPS? This started as a conversation about using the aggro meter in place of a parser, which was then countered with the fact that the aggro meter is a terrible tool to do so with.

[giwaman]

Trust the process
It all depends on how dedicated you are, everyone can achieve Greatness just like in real life you gotta study and work hard for you dreams.
I use to be an aweful player and never in my wildest dream to step foot and raid savage content, and then I cleared O8s xD !.

[MoroMurasaki]

You seem to be using dungeons as evidence now, which... is almost entirely meaningless as far as content goes, but all right. I don't get the point you're trying to make though. If both DPS are good or bad, the need to see who is the better or worse becomes irrelevant.

I don't understand what evidence you deem acceptable? You've dismissed everything. When people use Savage as an example it's all about how Savage is separate, now Dual is phrasing things around the idea of a dungeon situation but it still isn't good enough?


What specific piece of content are you trying to frame things around, for the sake of being able to have a conversation about it instead of this constant wheel of "sorry wrong content" that's been cropping up so much lately.

Let me tell you, a RDM could be not very good at all but if they hit their opener without Diversion in it they will be tanking more than half the time. Enmity means almost nothing in relation to damage until you get to the very high end of dps where enmity starts to become an issue even when threat dumps are used appropriately and frequently or the gear disparity between a tank and a dps is so great that it has an impact.

The point is no matter the content, from dungeons to Savage, there are too many variables to be able to measure a single player's dps without at least having inside information on the other members of the party or, prefarably, the ability to parse. Just the wild variation that you can see in terms of dps from support roles renders the "how fast the content feels" thing essentially moot - you could have tanks and healers contributing the vast majority of party damage while all the dps slack off, still feels like it's going fast enough so those dps must be adequate, right?

There is no substitute for a parser. None. To suggest otherwise is to spread misinformation.