DPS who do 4k worth of damage = garbage tier

[Dualgunner]

Wow...you seriously don't know how?

Yeah..I'm just gonna sit back and watch you figure that one out.

Last thing I want to do is give you guys more ammo.

*Moves on*


EDIT: OK ill give you a hint. Tanks rely on this very heavily.....at least they should.

Don't need a parser to read the condescending smugness here, wowie. You're also very wrong, which makes it that much funnier. But don't worry, I'll sit back and let you figure out why you're wrong. Here's a hint: Diversion, shadewalker, smokescreen, tactician, refresh, purification, merciful eyes, and lucid dreaming.

[Lunaxia]

blurg

...you're joking, right? There's a lot of "condescending smugness" going on here, and I'm not looking at them.

To be honest, I even kind of agree. It's very easy to spot the difference between weak links among DPS and a good DPS who uses their enmity dump. You don't really need a parser to tell you if someone is doing "garbage" level damage. No, you can't spot who might be lagging a bit or more subtle differences, but when a boss is taking a while to kill or something seems off, it doesn't exactly take a discerning eye to spot who's bringing the group down, which I'm inclined to believe is what the other poster meant.

But if your working definition of "garbage" is 4 - 5k in a Savage setting, then yes, it won't be so easy to see. It all depends on what your standard is, and there's not much else to it. That won't stop the meaningless point scoring, though.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

To be honest, I even kind of agree. It's very easy to spot the difference between weak links among DPS and a good DPS who uses their enmity dump. You don't really need a parser to tell you if someone is doing "garbage" level damage. No, you can't spot who might be lagging a bit or more subtle differences, but when a boss is taking a while to kill or something seems off, it doesn't exactly take a discerning eye to spot who's bringing the group down, which I'm inclined to believe is what the other poster meant.

The other night, I did a Tsuki "farm" where the Samurai called out the Bard and I for "sucking" despite said Bard doing almost 2k more DPS. The Dragoon was in worse; netting a whopping 2,500 DPS in i350+ gear. Who did he put Dragon Sight on? The Samurai who couldn't out DPS a Bard or Ninja. Who was riding the enmity table the whole fight amongst DPS? The Samurai. You mean to tell me you could discern all this without a parse?

[Dualgunner]

...you're joking, right? There's a lot of "condescending smugness" going on here, and I'm not looking at them.

Oh no, I'm deadly serious. DPS have so many forms of aggro manipulation and dampening that using the aggro meter to tell how well DPS are doing is a act of futility. Even if we take those away, the aggro meter is a relative measure; you only see people's aggro versus the person who has the highest aggro.

Also did you read their post, which I mimicked? Maybe you picked up a different tone than I did but "Wow...you seriously don't know how?", "Yeah..I'm just gonna sit back and watch you figure that one out." and "EDIT: OK ill give you a hint. Tanks rely on this very heavily.....at least they should." absolutely bloody reek of smugness.

To be honest, I even kind of agree. It's very easy to spot the difference between weak links among DPS and a good DPS who uses their enmity dump.

You still only have a measure of how well they're doing against each other and yourself, not a measure of how well they're doing. Let's say you have a tank who spams RoH combo in shield all day and both DPS are so low on the aggro list that there's hardly a pixel difference between them, how do you tell then?

You don't really need a parser to tell you if someone is doing "garbage" level damage.

You don't really even need an aggro meter to see if somebody is being well and truly garbage; ie, not keeping buffs up, dots up, etc. You'll notice, however, the point of contention here is using the aggro meter specifically, when there are so many things that manipulate it. I did not respond to this post I responded to this post.

No, you can't spot who might be lagging a bit or more subtle differences, but when a boss is taking a while to kill or something seems off, it doesn't exactly take a discerning eye to spot who's bringing the group down, which I'm inclined to believe is what the other poster meant.

It's an inaccurate tool that only gives relative readings, period. It's possible to have the highest dps also have the lowest aggro, and vice versa, especially because as skill goes up you'll also notice people use more of their toolkits. Because of this, you could be assuming that RDM at the bottom of the aggro list is doing the lowest DPS when actually the SAM is; because the tool you're sticking to is that inaccurate.

But if your working definition of "garbage" is 4 - 5k in a Savage setting, then yes, it won't be so easy to see.

Please, PLEASE quote where I said that.

It all depends on what your standard is, and there's not much else to it. That won't stop the meaningless point scoring, though.

[Lunaxia]

oy vey

I'd need to see it myself, but the DRG would probably be noticeable (more or less the level I was referring to), as would that the SAM's claims were wrong. As for him, if he was just mediocre and you both performed at a high level/ with enmity dumps, that would be more difficult to see, but you didn't mention numbers.

Oh no, I'm deadly serious.

If you're observant, you can notice when enmity tools/ stances are being employed and affecting the table.

And I did. I didn't find it nearly as grating at some other posts I've seen.

boop

I assumed the discussion pertained to 8 man trials, but even in dungeons, it's still easy to see large discrepancies in DPS. If they really are garbage, they'll still sit at 4 even with enmity dumps in my experience, so it's not exactly wrong. As for the "point of contention", to me it just looks like more posturing over semantics. Someone with what I would call garbage playing would sit at the bottom of the enmity table regardless of aggro tools (or rise very, very briefly), and in that respect I'd agree it can be used as a vague indicator (though I'd also take cues from their gear and how they play.) Mere under-performing would be harder to detect, and isn't what I'm referring to.

Please, PLEASE quote where I said that.

You didn't, I wasn't referring to you specifically in that comment. Calm down.

[Dualgunner]

If you're observant, you can notice when enmity tools/ stances are being employed and affecting the table.

I'll buy you can watch when diversion (at the start of the fight), tactician, refresh, and shirk happen. With the same effort you'd be looking at someone's diversion, smokescreen, or shadewalker mid-fight though, you could also see buffs and dots on the boss, which are a far better indicator of non-parse damage gauging. The aggro table is still inaccurate to to the point of being blatantly wrong in a lot of scenarios.

And I did. I didn't find it nearly as grating at some other posts I've seen.

Yet you found my post, which was a mimic of theirs, grating. Alrighty, you and I will have to agree to disagree here.

I assumed the discussion pertained to 8 man trials, but even in dungeons, it's still easy to see large discrepancies in DPS. If they really are garbage, they'll still sit at 4 even with enmity dumps in my experience, so it's not exactly wrong.

Oh and let's not forget, it's all still relative. If the whole party is hot garbage, then the aggro meter isn't going to be a very good measure of that. If all four dps are bad, or both dps are bad, or all 18 dps are bad, the aggro meter won't measure that at all.

As for the "point of contention", to me it just looks like more posturing over semantics. Someone with what I would call garbage playing would sit at the bottom of the enmity table regardless of aggro tools (or rise very, very briefly), and in that respect I'd agree it can be used as a vague indicator (though I'd also take cues from their gear and how they play.) Mere under-performing would be harder to detect, and isn't what I'm referring to.

Sounds to me like your definition of "garbage" is "almost literally dead at their chair."

Diversion is 90% aggro mitigation over 30 seconds. Tactician, Refresh, and Lucid drop aggro by half. Shadewalker diverts 80% of aggro to the tank, and smokescreen is 80% aggro mitigation based on a quick link I found, possibly outdated.

You would need to be doing so so terribly less than a dps using proper aggro mitigation and manipulation that you might as well not even exist at that point.

You didn't, I wasn't referring to you specifically in that comment. Calm down.

Ahh, you used the general "you". See that's confusing when you've been using the second person to respond to somebody, and make no kind of mention that you're shifting to the general "you".

[Lunaxia]

The aggro table is still inaccurate to to the point of being blatantly wrong in a lot of scenarios.

Scenarios I'm not talking about, yes.

Yet you found my post, which was a mimic of theirs, grating. Alrighty, you and I will have to agree to disagree here.

Again, I did not refer to you.

snip

Unfortunately there aren't fflogs for Kugane Castle, so you'll have to pardon me and use an ounce of common sense there. If you believe otherwise, I envy you the parties you've been in.

My definition of garbage is garbage, yes. Shocking, isn't it? If we're talking high DPS vs bad DPS, the gap caused by the enmity reducer is soon covered, especially in the case of a 10 minute or so long fight.

snip

You don't have anything to apologise for, ye gods.

snip

I would have noted the enmity tools you used. Decent NIN make good use of the aggro abilities at their disposal, so I wouldn't have assumed you to be the problem.

[KaivaC]

You don't have anything to apologise for, ye gods.

Considering the number of people (that number is definitely growing...slowly...but still growing) seem to think that I'm personally calling them garbage, even after I have already said this is not my own opinion....clearly, what I'm writing is misunderstood, and that is 100% on me because I now have people thinking that I'm calling them garbage myself. It is what it is at this point - won't be around too much longer, so I really have nothing further to add to this discussion.

[HoodRat]

Unfortunately there aren't fflogs for Kugane Castle

https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/14#boss=4511

[Dualgunner]

Scenarios I'm not talking about, yes.

There's your problem right there, you just don't want to talk about the parts of the conversation where you're wrong. They don't go away just because you're "not talking about them."

Again, I did not refer to you.

Of every possible person to pick to respond to, because I'm certainly one of many you could have chosen to quote and talk about using aggro as a measure of DPS, you picked me. You specifically picked me, to respond to me mimicking somebody for being condescending and full of themselves, to tell me specifically you thought they were not the condescending one.

So yes. You were very much referring to me here.

EDIT: Relevant

Wow...you seriously don't know how?

Yeah..I'm just gonna sit back and watch you figure that one out.

Last thing I want to do is give you guys more ammo.

*Moves on*


EDIT: OK ill give you a hint. Tanks rely on this very heavily.....at least they should.

The post I responded to.

Don't need a parser to read the condescending smugness here, wowie.

My post.

...you're joking, right? There's a lot of "condescending smugness" going on here, and I'm not looking at them.

You responding, saying you see "condescending smugness" and it's not Neph; the implication is I'm the smug one, which I am, because I'm mimicking the tone of their post.

Also did you read their post, which I mimicked? Maybe you picked up a different tone than I did but "Wow...you seriously don't know how?", "Yeah..I'm just gonna sit back and watch you figure that one out." and "EDIT: OK ill give you a hint. Tanks rely on this very heavily.....at least they should." absolutely bloody reek of smugness.

My original response to you.

And I did. I didn't find it nearly as grating at some other posts I've seen.

The implication here, for the audience who may be reading this, is that my post was one of those posts you found grating. In fact, of all the posts you supposedly found grating, you responded to mine, so mine either grated you especially hard or was the straw that broke the camel's back, either way the implication is my post grated you.

Yet you found my post, which was a mimic of theirs, grating. Alrighty, you and I will have to agree to disagree here.

Me again.

Again, I did not refer to you.

Yet somehow you're gonna pretend you weren't referring to me. That worked once, because it was true. It doesn't work when it very blatantly is not.

Unfortunately there aren't fflogs for Kugane Castle, so you'll have to pardon me and use an ounce of common sense there. If you believe otherwise, I envy you the parties you've been in.

HoodRat kind of served you there, but beyond that, you haven't responded that the aggro table is relational. This means, if both DPS are trash, then the aggro will show up similar to if they're both good.

My definition of garbage is garbage, yes. Shocking, isn't it? If we're talking high DPS vs bad DPS, the gap caused by the enmity reducer is soon covered, especially in the case of a 10 minute or so long fight.

No, your definition of garbage is braindead. If aggro tools aren't good enough, then the lower DPS is either AFK, semi AFK, so utterly bad at this game they cannot muster complete combos, or they're outclassed as far as gear goes. Which, again, doesn't cover if both DPS are bad or both DPS are good, seeing as the aggro gauge is a relational measure, and no I'm not gonna stop bringing it up because you consistently haven't answered it.