DPS who do 4k worth of damage = garbage tier

[KaivaC]

Clearly, I have not elaborated on my initial posting as well as I could have. Maybe I should've taken a bit more time to actually post my actual opinion, rather than reposting a comment and letting it go on - some may have the general idea that I am saying this. Which I am not. But it is what it is. I'll probably back off from this discussion - apologies everyone. I should've worded my original posting much better than what I have.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

To be honest, I even kind of agree. It's very easy to spot the difference between weak links among DPS and a good DPS who uses their enmity dump. You don't really need a parser to tell you if someone is doing "garbage" level damage. No, you can't spot who might be lagging a bit or more subtle differences, but when a boss is taking a while to kill or something seems off, it doesn't exactly take a discerning eye to spot who's bringing the group down, which I'm inclined to believe is what the other poster meant.

The other night, I did a Tsuki "farm" where the Samurai called out the Bard and I for "sucking" despite said Bard doing almost 2k more DPS. The Dragoon was in worse; netting a whopping 2,500 DPS in i350+ gear. Who did he put Dragon Sight on? The Samurai who couldn't out DPS a Bard or Ninja. Who was riding the enmity table the whole fight amongst DPS? The Samurai. You mean to tell me you could discern all this without a parse?

[Dualgunner]

...you're joking, right? There's a lot of "condescending smugness" going on here, and I'm not looking at them.

Oh no, I'm deadly serious. DPS have so many forms of aggro manipulation and dampening that using the aggro meter to tell how well DPS are doing is a act of futility. Even if we take those away, the aggro meter is a relative measure; you only see people's aggro versus the person who has the highest aggro.

Also did you read their post, which I mimicked? Maybe you picked up a different tone than I did but "Wow...you seriously don't know how?", "Yeah..I'm just gonna sit back and watch you figure that one out." and "EDIT: OK ill give you a hint. Tanks rely on this very heavily.....at least they should." absolutely bloody reek of smugness.

To be honest, I even kind of agree. It's very easy to spot the difference between weak links among DPS and a good DPS who uses their enmity dump.

You still only have a measure of how well they're doing against each other and yourself, not a measure of how well they're doing. Let's say you have a tank who spams RoH combo in shield all day and both DPS are so low on the aggro list that there's hardly a pixel difference between them, how do you tell then?

You don't really need a parser to tell you if someone is doing "garbage" level damage.

You don't really even need an aggro meter to see if somebody is being well and truly garbage; ie, not keeping buffs up, dots up, etc. You'll notice, however, the point of contention here is using the aggro meter specifically, when there are so many things that manipulate it. I did not respond to this post I responded to this post.

No, you can't spot who might be lagging a bit or more subtle differences, but when a boss is taking a while to kill or something seems off, it doesn't exactly take a discerning eye to spot who's bringing the group down, which I'm inclined to believe is what the other poster meant.

It's an inaccurate tool that only gives relative readings, period. It's possible to have the highest dps also have the lowest aggro, and vice versa, especially because as skill goes up you'll also notice people use more of their toolkits. Because of this, you could be assuming that RDM at the bottom of the aggro list is doing the lowest DPS when actually the SAM is; because the tool you're sticking to is that inaccurate.

But if your working definition of "garbage" is 4 - 5k in a Savage setting, then yes, it won't be so easy to see.

Please, PLEASE quote where I said that.

It all depends on what your standard is, and there's not much else to it. That won't stop the meaningless point scoring, though.

[Sotaris]

I would say it depends much on what fight we're talking about. For example OS6 as caster i do 4-4.5k dps as BLM due to moving around.
While i most likely can do better (just cleared the fight so not 100% where i can stand longer period of time to go ham on F4s).

[Lunaxia]

oy vey

I'd need to see it myself, but the DRG would probably be noticeable (more or less the level I was referring to), as would that the SAM's claims were wrong. As for him, if he was just mediocre and you both performed at a high level/ with enmity dumps, that would be more difficult to see, but you didn't mention numbers.

Oh no, I'm deadly serious.

If you're observant, you can notice when enmity tools/ stances are being employed and affecting the table.

And I did. I didn't find it nearly as grating at some other posts I've seen.

boop

I assumed the discussion pertained to 8 man trials, but even in dungeons, it's still easy to see large discrepancies in DPS. If they really are garbage, they'll still sit at 4 even with enmity dumps in my experience, so it's not exactly wrong. As for the "point of contention", to me it just looks like more posturing over semantics. Someone with what I would call garbage playing would sit at the bottom of the enmity table regardless of aggro tools (or rise very, very briefly), and in that respect I'd agree it can be used as a vague indicator (though I'd also take cues from their gear and how they play.) Mere under-performing would be harder to detect, and isn't what I'm referring to.

Please, PLEASE quote where I said that.

You didn't, I wasn't referring to you specifically in that comment. Calm down.

[F_Maximillian]

If someone is in current gear and they're giving a genuine effort and fall into the 4k range they aren't garbage but they have quite alot of work to do. It's when you have people who are in current gear who are being regularly outdamaged by tanks and healers as dps or tanks/healers who are in/near the triple digits that it starts to be one of those "this guy really sucks" situations (obviously deaths/mechanics/having to pick up for party members slack will effect this). Effort shows and there's no real way to do as low as 4k in current gear as a dps if you're actually putting effort in unless you need to learn your rotation better or learn to increase your uptime.

On a bit of a tangent though, if this is related to a run or two that you've had one thing I can say is that you don't really give yourself enough time to dig into the intricacies of the class you're trying to play with all the class hopping you do. One thing (and I believe there was a thread of yours I replied to way back when asking for input) that I've noticed in the few times I've seen your logs is that you need to work on your uptime. Greed is not a bad thing so long as you aren't messing up the group but it takes causing wipes sometimes to see what you can get away with and get comfortable with taking more risks. The important thing is to play with people who are understanding and/or are also trying to push themselves to improve and it won't be a problem. Uptime and CPM are honestly the two biggest factors (though they're really one factor combined) in people doing below average damage, that and a shoddy rotation that needs some adjusting.

[Gin_Gray]

Wow....

All this says is I feel sorry for the tanks you meet because your not using enmity tools.

[Dualgunner]

If you're observant, you can notice when enmity tools/ stances are being employed and affecting the table.

I'll buy you can watch when diversion (at the start of the fight), tactician, refresh, and shirk happen. With the same effort you'd be looking at someone's diversion, smokescreen, or shadewalker mid-fight though, you could also see buffs and dots on the boss, which are a far better indicator of non-parse damage gauging. The aggro table is still inaccurate to to the point of being blatantly wrong in a lot of scenarios.

And I did. I didn't find it nearly as grating at some other posts I've seen.

Yet you found my post, which was a mimic of theirs, grating. Alrighty, you and I will have to agree to disagree here.

I assumed the discussion pertained to 8 man trials, but even in dungeons, it's still easy to see large discrepancies in DPS. If they really are garbage, they'll still sit at 4 even with enmity dumps in my experience, so it's not exactly wrong.

Oh and let's not forget, it's all still relative. If the whole party is hot garbage, then the aggro meter isn't going to be a very good measure of that. If all four dps are bad, or both dps are bad, or all 18 dps are bad, the aggro meter won't measure that at all.

As for the "point of contention", to me it just looks like more posturing over semantics. Someone with what I would call garbage playing would sit at the bottom of the enmity table regardless of aggro tools (or rise very, very briefly), and in that respect I'd agree it can be used as a vague indicator (though I'd also take cues from their gear and how they play.) Mere under-performing would be harder to detect, and isn't what I'm referring to.

Sounds to me like your definition of "garbage" is "almost literally dead at their chair."

Diversion is 90% aggro mitigation over 30 seconds. Tactician, Refresh, and Lucid drop aggro by half. Shadewalker diverts 80% of aggro to the tank, and smokescreen is 80% aggro mitigation based on a quick link I found, possibly outdated.

You would need to be doing so so terribly less than a dps using proper aggro mitigation and manipulation that you might as well not even exist at that point.

You didn't, I wasn't referring to you specifically in that comment. Calm down.

Ahh, you used the general "you". See that's confusing when you've been using the second person to respond to somebody, and make no kind of mention that you're shifting to the general "you".

[DaulBan]

4k is about what tanks are shooting for in most fights. Being at around 4k as a DPS means that there's some integral issue with how you're playing the job. Whether that means you're garbage or not depends on your opinion of the person in question. If someone is mouthy, gets themselves killed a lot, complains about other people's mistakes, etc. etc. I'd say that they kinda suck, or might not be worth having in the party. It's the sort of thing where if you're better off having another random person in PF or DF than that person the 'garbage' title might be appropriate, but I'd never say it to the person's face.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I'd need to see it myself, but the DRG would probably be noticeable (more or less the level I was referring to), as would that the SAM's claims were wrong. As for him, if he was just mediocre and you both performed at a high level/ with enmity dumps, that would be more difficult to see, but you didn't mention numbers.

My own numbers were 5,000+ until a death occurred. As I was on Ninja though, I'm curious how you would be able to notice since I Shadewalker the tank, Smokescreen the Bard and use Diversion myself—something the Dragoon didn't. Granted, his damage was awful enough it wouldn't have made as much of an impact but all those aggro tricks will make me low on the enmity list despite being second in DPS.