DPS Stance vs Tank Stance Including Healer DPS

[Tex_Mex]

Seems like the only tank that's really hurt by that kind of "tank stance" change is Warrior (intentional? lol). Being stuck in Defiance means we probably won't get to use Inner Release for damage, however PLD/DRK still get all their DPS abilities (some of which are even augmented by tank stance). Yea there's a possibility of swapping to deliverance for IR windows but that would depend a bit on mechanics happening in a given fight. (ie is it a phase where we can drop defense and/or tank swap)

Note that DRK actually gets hurt pretty badly by this too because their best damage cooldown (Blood Weapon) cannot be used while in Grit stance.

[Reynhart]

Someone will do more damage, even if it is as minor as "DPS stance with an astro cuz they do poor dps and buff the party, but tank stance with a sch who does more personal damage and doesn't buff the tank" which will still setup a meta composition and way to play.

If the healers are balanced enough, what healer you have in your party will not change depending on your stance, cause the healing requirement will be the same.

As long as tank stance affects damage in any way, it will get number crunched and analyzed until the optimal way to play is teased out.

And if the numbers even out when pairing tank+healers DPS, people won't stop complaining when tank use their stance.

And that would have some unintended consequences both on "herp derp stance or die" and making life harder for lower tiered players.

Why does everybody thinks that it's either "You can avoid the tank stance 100% of the time and be healed easily" or "Tank stance or OS" ? There's a middle ground.

Then you have an area to engage with that doesn't make tanking absurdly difficult (by hitting so hard) for lower skilled players further alienating the rarest jobs in roulettes.

Just a reminder. Tank stance vs DPS stance doesn't matter in roulettes. Make tanking absurdly difficult in absurdly difficult content is...logical.

[whiskeybravo]

Note that DRK actually gets hurt pretty badly by this too because their best damage cooldown (Blood Weapon) cannot be used while in Grit stance.

Thanks for pointing that out, I forgot entirely BP and BW are locked behind grit. It is a pretty significant damage buff for DRK.

Make tanking absurdly difficult in absurdly difficult content is...logical.

Difficulty is subjective, though. And the thing about tanking is, the harder you make it on the tank the harder it will be on the healers because we are intrinsically tied together for survival. The take no damage/deal no damage style is not really all that fun. I know from prog runs in Defiance, it's boring as hell and there's certainly nothing challenging about it, and plenty of others have expounded on that experience from other MMOs too. Having to switch to tank stance because damage intake is too high without it is not difficult, much less absurdly difficult, especially for the tank. Press button = live.

Short of a complete combat system rework that would introduce more elements like you've described, what we have now works fine. There's no real reason to change it, just various opinions from people on how they would find it more engaging. My own subjective opinion is that it's much more thrilling to know I'm practically on the brink of death when playing out of tank stance; one miss timed heal, one crit auto away from certain death. That's "savage" content. IMO Healers don't do as much damage because they're not damage dealing classes, they're healers. Pretty plain and simple. Tanks have nearly 100% uptime on enemies, multiple melee combos and cooldowns for damage, tools to deal with threat and incoming damage - what exactly is so wrong with tanks being a qausi-damage dealing class? We are already right here in the enemies face. FITE ME BRO

[Reynhart]

The take no damage/deal no damage style is not really all that fun.

The core of the problem. Not all tank think that way.
Having the strategic options to go full tank stance and let healers have far more room to DPS, or going full DPS stance while healer are more focused on keeping us alive would please both types of tank and healer players, instead of forcing everyone into a single meta.

I'm practically on the brink of death when playing out of tank stance; one miss timed heal, one crit auto away from certain death

Problem is, that situation is mostly on the healer's shoulders, not yours. So you're thrilled at putting pressure on someone else.

[whiskeybravo]

So you're thrilled at putting pressure on someone else.

No, I'm thrilled at living "dangerously", not by putting unnecessary pressure on my healers against their will.. Which is what your phrase sounds like. If I die I don't automatically blame them (unless it's a situation where I simply didn't get heals) - I look at my kit and see if there is something I can do different to help them while still maintaining my own damage.

And, there's been plenty of times where I have sucked it up and went to defiance because healers were struggling. So it's not like I'm entirely against tank stance or something. Strategic options, as you say. But I'm not going to act like it was the best thing ever. It sucks, especially for War because the main damage dealing aspect of the class is shoved away in a dark corner, and you sit there popping inner beast like the One True Tank God.

[Capn_Goggles]

So you're thrilled at putting pressure on someone else.

I play scholar, a healer that is not particularly great in dungeons, and I've never had a problem with fat pulls provided the tank isn't undergeared or they're making blatantly dumb pulls; my DPS rotation consists of putting two DoTs up, casting bane, and then refreshing Miasma II, it's really not hard to juggle that stuff. Frankly, and I mean no offense to players that aren't very skilled, but if you are having trouble healing through that then that sits squarely on your shoulders.

[Naryoril]

No, the reason why tank stance exists in the first place is to balance tank damage when compared to real DPS in group content, while still allowing them to do decent damage when soloing.

This is also my understanding why tank stances exist, but now they aren't used that way. This problem could indeed be solved by increasing the mitigation of tank stances combined with increasing the damage boss does to the tank, by increasing white, cleave and tank buster damage, in other words: all attacks that should only hit the tank. Although this leaves the problem that tanks might be able ignore some mechanics because they take less damage. And probably some other issues i'm not seeing right now.

[Shurrikhan]

Considering that, right now, people avoid tank stance, even though some survival skills can be locked behind it, it wouldn't change anything. Besides, the reason why tank stance is avoided is because, in the end, only DPS matters.

No, the reason why tank stance exists in the first place is to balance tank damage when compared to real DPS in group content, while still allowing them to do decent damage when soloing. The absurdity is to be able to survive "easily" out of it.

Fair enough, but why purposely hamstring gameplay just to deal with what should have been dealt with through tuning? In either case where Tank stances become a non-option whilst actually tanking, they provide nothing to gameplay. At least at present they provide a backup CD or training wheels mode. Locking necessary survival tools behind it would be even more empty of choice or tactical nuance.

[Reynhart]

they provide nothing to gameplay.

Neither the tank stance or DPS provide really anything gameplay wise, they just change numbers, so I don't really understand how it fits into the topic.

At least at present they provide a backup CD or training wheels mode. Locking necessary survival tools behind it would be even more empty of choice or tactical nuance.

Increasing the gap between damage taken in and out of tank stance won't lock anything more than it currently does. They really only be a tactical choice of who lose part of its DPS to make sure the team survives, the healer or the tank. This tweak is really only there to please more than one type of tank/healer, since there is a constant debate wether you should use your stance or not, or if you should heavily DPS as a healer or not. That's all.

Of course, they could be reworked deeper, but it's far more complicated than only adjusting numbers.

[Shurrikhan]

Neither the tank stance or DPS provide really anything gameplay wise, they just change numbers, so I don't really understand how it fits into the topic.

You made a suggestion. Myself and others replied to it with criticisms. You've warranted your suggestion as necessary because "people avoid tank stance". I ask how it is any better if they use it 100% of the time. The 50% damage reduction / 100% healing on tank stances, and an increase to boss damage dealt to warrant it, overshoots healer/tank parity between tank modifier reduction and healer GCD by a ridiculous degree, and would essentially remove any prospect of tanking without the tank stance active, and for a fair bit after if even a single AA can crit during a Shirk-less tank swap.

Increasing the gap between damage taken in and out of tank stance won't lock anything more than it currently does.

The exchange in viability and necessity in the timings of particular mitigation or curative tools due to incoming damage rates will absolutely newly lock out skill actions over time, in this case painfully limiting the available windows from which you see a breakpoint effect. It may not be an inherent lock-out as in "Only available during Shield Oath", but it will effect much the same.

They really only be a tactical choice of who lose part of its DPS to make sure the team survives, the healer or the tank. This tweak is really only there to please more than one type of tank/healer, since there is a constant debate wether you should use your stance or not, or if you should heavily DPS as a healer or not. That's all.

If there's room to debate whether you should use your tank stance or not, especially when ease of play favors the non-optimal choice, then it must be approaching a very solid balance point as is. I'm not saying it's perfect -- I too would prefer a tighter parity, though from slight adjustments to the tank toolkits instead -- but it's a far closer than your suggested version, imo.

Of course, they could be reworked deeper, but it's far more complicated than only adjusting numbers.

Yes, they could, and certainly would need to be reworked under much greater detail and firmer guidelines than this in order to approach a greater healer/tank parity, if that is your goal, because it is far more than adjusting numbers generally.