Scholar vs Astrologian Mitigation

[Godofhealing]

hmmm i just dont know how about we make everything overpowered therefore everything will be balance.

[Fernosaur]

Snip

I mean, I said NoctAST is trash at mitigating, and my post particularly spoke of its relative weakness in doing so when compared to SCH. NoctAST isn't trash in vaccum, even though it's the least efficient healer by far and imo the worst of the "four," if we count DiAST as a separate job, which it kind of is. My entire post was specifically talking about mitigation in response to the OP. In a solo-healing scenario where action efficiency and the healer's personal DPS isn't the main focus, NoctAST has some of the best tools in the game, but sadly that's not the format that matters for balance because that's not how the game is designed.

Despite appearances, SCH was mostly fine since SB launched, even though I actually jumped out of levelling it when SB released in favor of levelling WHM, but that was almost exclusively because of the horrible AoE damage erasure it had on release, making it painful to play in dungeons, plus the inability to weave oGCDs comfortably. Miasma II single-handedly (mostly) solved those two problems, so I'm happily playing SCH again. That said, this new capacity to weave so freely caused an off-set in how the devs perceived SCH's personal DPS to shape up compared to WHM, to the point where SCH can actually outDPS the later now. I feel like this could be solved by nerfing Broil II's potency a tiiiny bit, but I'm not sure how much.

Most other buffs the job has gotten have been an exageration and a mistake, similar to changing WAR's Shake if Off into a party shield (Why?!), with the exception of Quickened Aetherflow, which goes hand in hand with how Miasma II can be used in single target scenarios for weaving, and increasing Excogitation's potency, which was more of a value vs cost matter. SCH, as a healer, played almost exactly the same as it did on HW at the start of Stormblood save for the horrible weaving drought, but the rest of the kit was fine as it was cause it was virtually the same, save for the nerf on Fey Illumination and Embrace, which didn't really end up changing anything regardless.

So yeah, I mean, I guess I agree with you? None of the SCH buffs were called for, even though people were bawling for them. Succor was hilariously overbuffed, since the +75 pot increase is very very considerable compared to the 20 potency difference between it and NoctHelios when taking into consideration the ease of snap healing SCH already provides with Indom, and the ridiculous strength of Whispering Dawn. Not to mention you can get double shields by casting Succor and then deploying off your fairy, pretty much getting an extra eHP 225 potency out of a single spell. The MP buffs were, um... I have to say I'm neutral on them. They hardly affected the way SCH plays in raid farming, but the "downside" to them is that they are incredibly powerful for progression, which, again is a facet where AST, and specially NoctAST, severly pales in comparison. The Indom buff was also all manners of ?????.

Of course, all of this I say with the benefit of hindsight. SCH looked bad on release due to getting pretty much only nerfs, plus all of us severly mispredicting the massive value Chain Stratagem always actually had. The outrage at the beginning, of which I am guilty of being part of, was definitely the cause for all the unnecessary buffs, which have now resulted in the same problem AST posed at the end of HW just to get rid of the bad mojo SCH got with the new expansion.

To finish, when I say "buff NoctAST" I'm not even thinking of something major, to be honest. I think reducing the CD on Collective Unconscious to 1 minute exclusively while under the effect of Nocturnal Sect could help it a little bit, to provide more readily available %-based mitigation (which should be the job's main focus) plus some additional party healing regens being more available for a little bit more action efficiency other than "spam Helios." I don't find this change particularly overpowered and could help the job's terrible MP management. CU is already kinda terrible as an oGCD healing tool, but having a 750-1100ish potency regen heal not tied to MP consumption could help the job quite a bit, on top of making it a little bit less reliant on Earthly Star for progression. Also notice that this change would only affect Nocturnal Sect, so it would not affect the comparative balance of AST vs WHM at all.

That said, so long as Chain Stratagem exists, SCH will keep on being the superior mitigation-focused healer, even if all the potency buffs are taken back.

PS. Yeah, NoctAST's single target shields are "just okay." They still cost a GCD to use and they still consume a massive amount of MP, sooo. They definitely can save lives, but they're not AMAAAAZING.

Just no.

First healing don't need to be stronger than it currently is. Shield doesn't either now with the new tank shield.
And second it would conflict with cards and lucid dreaming timing too much. Time dilatation and celestial opposition are fine as they are.

There really isn't any need to make AST stronger. The problem with AST both lies in exclusives "filler healer" stances and the cards that take a lot of differents skills to work while 3 of them can't be relied on in an actual fight.
But stronger healing spells isn't needed at all.

Btw, just wanted to add, that I 100% agree with this sentiment. AST's design is terrible in the way it is forced to fit into an artificial dichotomy of shields+regens. However, I think it's not realistic to expect the job's entire design to be changed at this point in the expansion, even though HW to SB was a perfect opportunity to do so (just look at Bard!). So, for now, the only band-aid solutions I can think of is pulling some of SCH's unnecessary strengths back and giving NoctAST a tiny bump, to at least make the AST vs SCH situation a bit less unfair.

[Seraphor]

A group defense buff/heal verses an RNG group buff at 50%...

Scholar takes it every time.

I've never relied on the Bole for defence.
Aspected Helios and Benefic are the ASTs defence/heal skills.

[Fyce]

PS. Yeah, NoctAST's single target shields are "just okay." They still cost a GCD to use and they still consume a massive amount of MP, sooo. They definitely can save lives, but they're not AMAAAAZING.

Throwing a 575 potency shield with no cast time on someone -ontop of a 230 potency heal- is incredibly good. That's 805 potency in terms of eHP if the target is missing some health, while still having the biggest part on the shield. Even a crit Adlo isn't impressive in comparison, as a crit A.Benefic does roughly the same numbers while being insta-cast.

"It can save lives". Yes, and that's the point. It's currently the best tool in the game regarding snap reactions to mechanics that could kill a single target. Divine Benison is a great contender for that title, but it's far from being potent enough to do what A.Benefic can do while also being on a cooldown.

[Trunks]

Mitigation and shielding are just over-the-top over-powered and there's no way around it. People always look at these individual abilities as if they exist in a vacuum. It kills me to see threads like this, with people asking for buffs, while I cry in the corner about how overpowered both SCH and AST are (not by potency but by design), particularly given the design decisions in this raid tier.

This is why they need to do the heavy gutting when they release expansions, when there's other stuff to distract. Now all of these problems are going to stick around because it'd be fire and brimstone if the nerfs that are needed are actually handed down.

[Sunako]

Only small part of mitigation come from healer. Dps and tanks can affect lot for mitigation with addle, feint, dismantle, reprisal, shake it off, divine veil, passage of arms etc. Ultimate have been even solo healed with whm without any healer mitigation tools.

[Fyce]

-snip-

It's not irrelevant to compare some aspect of certain jobs without taking the full picture in consideration. Even if it's ultimately pointless to do so when reaching for conclusions or in order to do an epeen contest, it still has its perks.

For instance, since it drastically affect the gameplay of said jobs, one might find these informations useful when it comes to trying to know what job they'd enjoy playing. SCH tools can be pretty much overwhelming and intimidating to play, while AST is more straightforward in terms of mitigation. That's something people are likely to be interested in.

[Ceasaria]

It is important to me to say that Noc. field from Aspected Benefic can only reinforce by Time Dilation and Noc. field from Aspected Helios can only reinforce with Celestial Opposition. Otherwise would have no Idea witch multiplier we have there. That's why I built this restriction^^

Or just say max Shield duration is 40 sec.

So, an AST shield would be a kind of charged energy form that would see its power diminish over time.
So, adding time to this shield would result in recharging it, thus give it more energy.

I think it would be good and different from SCH, but isn't this concept close to the Geomancer (from the quests) ? I don't remember well.

[Rhymenoserous]

CO or Time Dilation do not be helpful in Noc., because an increase in the duration of the shield has no benefit; for Hots of cause.(longer HoTs = more heal, but only helpful in some moments)

Why would you time dialate your hots of all things? Buff extension is for cards, any hots that get extended are just a happy accident, since a non trivial number of hots end up as overheal anyways?

[Ceasaria]

Why would you time dialate your hots of all things? Buff extension is for cards, any hots that get extended are just a happy accident, since a non trivial number of hots end up as overheal anyways?

It is worth to give 5% additional balance for 15 sec (and maybe overwrited by the next card spread or wait 15 sec...) to one dps or give 15 sec additionnal of your 1-3 HoT (and + maybe the balance effect) to your tank, and let you and your co healer dps easily ?
I take the 2nd choice, it's very powerful for progress and speedkill.