The general player base needs to improve

[Gallus]

If you run into tempermental advice givers so much, that raises the question of what you are or aren't doing to prompt such advice being offered? I mean, I so rarely, if ever get advice, but I also show myself to be more than competent at whatever role/job I'm playing at the time, and generally am capable of figuring things out on my own. And I don't think that's anything extraordinary or difficult for any other player to do. The difference is having the will to do it.

Why do you assume I'm the one targeted by temperamental people? I don't like these people going wild on others either. I'm not even defending myself here. I know my rotations well. I'm not raiding currently, but I raided in Omega, a fast look at my FFlogs there would be enough to know I'm not the one not aoeing in dungeons or being called out for not pulling their weight.

[KaivaC]

Completely agree with that. Practicing their single target rotations on a dungeon when they should be playing for the team and AOE the group of mobs sounds selfish and isn't the perfect scenario... but nothing's perfect, ever, honestly. Going as far as to start a vote kick against these players? I say no to that. The only players I've kicked were people that were verbally harassing me or my group or were afk for a reasonable amount of time with no explanation given.

Honestly, it depends. It's one of those case-by-case basis. I won't initiate a vote kick myself over stuff like that. But if somebody else initiates the vote kick, if they've been doing things that make the dungeon run unnecessarily more difficult that I've personally noticed, I'll hit yes. If I haven't noticed it, I don't buy into it. I was encouraged back when I was trying to get my mentor status to kick a player who joined my party - I'll note it was explicitly me asking for a carry on Thordan Ex in the PF in order to obtain my mentor status (this was the only fight I hadn't actually learned). This was many months ago. I guess one of the players had a terribly bad experience with a DPS and they wanted me to kick them because they thought that the DPS was trolling in their last party.

I ignored that, because I don't react to things I don't personally see.

And lo and behold, we got the clear after several wipes, because turns out, that DPS was the one that taught me how to complete that fight. I done went on a completely different subject here...fact is, I don't see everything as cut-and-paste black-and-white. I'd prefer to help other players - if they ignore me, fine, I'll just deal with it. I picked up mentor status to help, though.

...and I totally lost track of why I was originally responding in the first place.

That's new... -_-

[Tridus]

Feel free to vote kick anyone in a dungeon who isn't doing the rotation you feel they should be doing, go ahead, you could be kicking someone who either just made it to 70, isn't very familiar with their aoe rotation, recently came back or simply wants to put into practice their single target rotation because they are still not 100% familiar with it. I'm certainly proud of have never done so and I will continue doing the same thing.

If someone isn't doing an AoE rotation, that sounds like a great time to offer some advice. Because if they are new or returning, they might not know how to do it.

Which kinda brings us back around to "offering unsolicited advice is rude/toxic" that's also been said in this thread. When someone is doing something obviously wrong, the two most likely explanations for why are that they don't know any better or that they don't care. One of those has a chance of being corrected with some polite advice, which, if accepted, will help that player in everything they do going forward. That sounds like a thing we should be encouraging people attempt first, before resorting to the kick button, right?

Yet, so many people trying to offer advice get slammed by the community for it.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Why do you assume I'm the one targeted by temperamental people? I don't like these people going wild on others either. I'm not even defending myself here. I know my rotations well. I'm not raiding currently, but I raided in Omega, a fast look at my FFlogs there would be enough to know I'm not the one not aoeing in dungeons or being called out for not pulling their weight.

Because of "I'm familiar with. . ." and "my experience told me otherwise. . ."

I don't think it's you personally, and I don't care about FFLogs one bit; that honestly holds no weight in the discussion here. But don't try to use your annecdotal experience to justify others not doing what would generally be considered reasonable, baseline play in sub-Savage content. Don't reach for excuses and far-reaching logic behind why anyone may or may not be playing to par. Yes, new is new, and some people just aren't good at some things. But it doesn't, and shouldn't end there. Saying the general playerbase needs to improve really touches upon the fact that even though the game may perhaps not require players to do better, there seems to be a lacking sense of desire for self-improvement. Just because you're not good or not at a higher level doesn't mean you should or have to stay there. And I'm not aiming this at just you, but anyone who's chimed in with the "people are going to do what they want/not everyone plays on the same level" bit.

No, not everyone does. But if they're not even playing to the baseline, then yes, at or by level 70, they need to be there, plain and simple. And it's NOT impossible to do. Doing what you want isn't how team-based content works. Let's establish that now, and let that crap logic be laid to rest in this discussion once and for all. The moment there's one more person in a party besides you, it's not about doing it your way anymore, and no amount of self-confident declaration is going to justify that.

[Gallus]

...and I totally lost track of why I was originally responding in the first place.

That's new... -_-

From what I gather, you seem to think there's a problem with the average level of this community. I'm not seeing it.

[Gallus]

If someone isn't doing an AoE rotation, that sounds like a great time to offer some advice. Because if they are new or returning, they might not know how to do it.

Which kinda brings us back around to "offering unsolicited advice is rude/toxic" that's also been said in this thread. When someone is doing something obviously wrong, the two most likely explanations for why are that they don't know any better or that they don't care. One of those has a chance of being corrected with some polite advice, which, if accepted, will help that player in everything they do going forward. That sounds like a thing we should be encouraging people attempt first, before resorting to the kick button, right?

Yet, so many people trying to offer advice get slammed by the community for it.

And if they don't know any better, you think they'll magically learn to AOE when you tell them how to in the same dungeon you are playing with them? I'll answer for you, they won't. And then my guess is that we'll go to the "I assume they are refusing to learn/they don't care" bit and proceed to kick them thinking you are being politically correct here.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Pharos Sirius, the first new dungeon we ever got, was nerfed.
Expert roulette/Daily content is intentionally kept at a low level of difficulty, both for convenience, and because they don't want players to feel blocked
Crystal Tower was nerfed internally before we every got to play it because the devs thought it was "too hard for players". It still proved to be one of the harder Alliance Raids we've ever had after that fact.
Coil saw several nerfs each time the content became old, to the point of some turns being a shell of their former self.
Steps of Faith was nerfed into oblivion.
SE is on record saying they wouldn't make any Ex trials as difficult after Thordan
Players petitioned to make sure Weeping City was NOT nerfed.

. . .If the average level of the community were fine, none of the above would've been a concern.

And if they don't know any better, you think they'll magically learn to AOE when you tell them how to in the same dungeon you are playing with them? I'll answer for you, they won't. And then my guess is that we'll go to the "I assume they are refusing to learn/they don't care" bit and proceed to kick them thinking you are being politically correct here.

You assume too much in immediately jumping to kicking the player. And realistically, there's no way for a player to not know what AoE skills they have available. Sure, some might not read tooltips, but who doesn't try out new skills when they get them? Fact is, it would take an active effort or absolute, complete, I've-never-touched-this-job-ever levels of competence to completely ignore AoE skills legitimately. But again, the difference between someone who legit doesn't know and someone who's just not trying is often quite clear. And I would hardly expect someone who actually doesn't know something to be hostile in being offered advice in a civil manner. As for someone not trying, if they get defiant, as I said before, either one of us is free to leave.

[Tridus]

And if they don't know any better, you think they'll magically learn to AOE when you tell them how to in the same dungeon you are playing with them?

Some of them will, yes. Considering even basic AoE would be a big upgrade and that can be as simple as "use Scatter instead of Jolt", it's something that can be explained in chat.

I'll answer for you, they won't.

And exactly what is that based on, except your resounding negativity about every player who isn't you?

And then my guess is that we'll go to the "I assume they are refusing to learn/they don't care" bit and proceed to kick them thinking you are being politically correct here.

Another negative assumption. Are you here to actually discuss anything, or just to attack everyone that isn't telling you what you want to hear?

[Gallus]

Because of "I'm familiar with. . ." and "my experience told me otherwise. . ."

And how do you exactly gather from there that I've been the one bullied all this time? If I see someone being a douche to another someone I don't like it either, and I acknowledge it. I don't go by the "as long as it doesn't happen to me it's fine" philosophy.

Doing what you want isn't how team-based content works.

In static groups and PF parties, it's only natural that people expect a minimum, in the rest of the content however, the phrase I quoted from you literally gives you free hand to call out every little thing you may not like from anyone you come across. Quite dangerous to go by that.

I don't think it's you personally, and I don't care about FFLogs one bit; that honestly holds no weight in the discussion here. But don't try to use your annecdotal experience to justify others not doing what would generally be considered reasonable, baseline play in sub-Savage content. Don't reach for excuses and far-reaching logic behind why anyone may or may not be playing to par. Yes, new is new, and some people just aren't good at some things. But it doesn't, and shouldn't end there. Saying the general playerbase needs to improve really touches upon the fact that even though the game may perhaps not require players to do better, there seems to be a lacking sense of desire for self-improvement. Just because you're not good or not at a higher level doesn't mean you should or have to stay there. And I'm not aiming this at just you, but anyone who's chimed in with the "people are going to do what they want/not everyone plays on the same level" bit.

No, not everyone does. But if they're not even playing to the baseline, then yes, at or by level 70, they need to be there, plain and simple. And it's NOT impossible to do. Doing what you want isn't how team-based content works. Let's establish that now, and let that crap logic be laid to rest in this discussion once and for all. The moment there's one more person in a party besides you, it's not about doing it your way anymore, and no amount of self-confident declaration is going to justify that.

And how do you plan on solving the "lack of desire for self-improvement", that's a pretty complicated thing to do. What else can you do other than making stuff harder? SE already did that with HW and Gordias, and it literally set the worst FFXIV precedent after the 1.0 fiasco. Why do you think they've made SB significantly easier, and why do you think a lot more people are playing now than they did in HW? Hell, you are literally asking them to do what made them lose more subs in the first place?
They've put share markers, they've made an eye of the size of an elephant appear when you have to look away from the target, they are certainly doing things to encourage people follow mechanics and make the game less confusing, but ultimately it's up to people.
Again, I don't see as much of a problem as you obviously do here.

[Gallus]

Some of them will, yes. Considering even basic AoE would be a big upgrade and that can be as simple as "use Scatter instead of Jolt", it's something that can be explained in chat.

I don't think every AOE rotation can be learnt that easily, not in a dungeon run. It's not just pressing the right buttons, it's pressing them in the right order, having them binded, some aoe rotations can be unforgiving if you mess up. SAM for instance is complex enough for someone to almost have no idea of where to even start provided they have never attempted it. You entirely put the blame on the player, and if things don't go the way you like, you automatically assume they are not listening to you and proceed to kick them. They could not be answering or answering with short sentences because there are a lot of PS4 players in this game too, and not every single one of them has a keyboard (or the space to put one next to the console to type comfortably). But really, just do your thing, there's a vote kick there for you to use, use it when you find it aproppriate. I'll do the same.