The general player base needs to improve

[Avatre]

I think the first dungeon of each expansion should be a challenge dungeon that throws ALL the mechanics learned up to that point at you(and I'm not talking savage/ultimate stuff, but things that have been seen in any of the regular dungeons/HM dungeons to date - stack markers, look away prompts, stand still and don't do anything, anything that actually requires you to do specific actions to negate/lower damage taken/not get debuff)

[KaivaC]

I think the first dungeon of each expansion should be a challenge dungeon that throws ALL the mechanics learned up to that point at you(and I'm not talking savage/ultimate stuff, but things that have been seen in any of the regular dungeons/HM dungeons to date - stack markers, look away prompts, stand still and don't do anything, anything that actually requires you to do specific actions to negate/lower damage taken/not get debuff)

Sorry...meant to reply to this. Well...we are lvl 70...ideally, players should be able to handle it. Not a bad idea...or better yet, why not just have challenge dungeons, period? I would like something like that.

[Avatre]

Sorry...meant to reply to this. Well...we are lvl 70...ideally, players should be able to handle it. Not a bad idea...or better yet, why not just have challenge dungeons, period? I would like something like that.

Ideally, yes, players should be able to handle that. But how many times have you ran into a level 70 fight, or even a level 60 one that EVERYONE is synced down to, and people run away with the stack marker. Or ignore the look away mechanic, or ignore the meteors/whatever? I find way too often that people run away with those, and I end up just ignoring them if they start moving away from the group.

[SavageCipher]

The major problem is the lack of research done. If you want to hit the dungeon all cowboy style, then do so. But if we're talking about raids. You need to be well informed on the mechanics. This is nothing new of course...MMO's have existed since the 90's, if you're still in the dark about how to do anything, you've either been living under a rock, or don't know how to use a search engine. There literally is only one excuse you can have for being bad at a game. And that's lack of actual, practical, skill. I'm still surprised to see either dps doing horrible rotations (late game) and healers not dp/dot-ing.

[DreadRabbit]

So I've read the thread, and as someone who readily admits they're a casual I kind of just want to toss my two cents. This post is gonna be long, so this is the TL;DR version of it:

This is both a developmental and a community problem. Just one side isn't going to help raise the skill level of the player base. SE bends too easily and needs to put its foot down, but there's a lot of entitlement on the part of the players (both the folks wanting skill improvement and those vehemently against it) that really needs to be set aside if we're going to get anywhere.

Why do I think this is a developmental problem?

Because there is a huge difficulty gap between MSQ content and raiding. I'm a firm believer in that a good game with good design choices will have everything you need to learn about the game within the game itself. FFXIV, as much as I love it, doesn't do that.

They've tried with Hall of the Novice and other similar stuff, but it falls short. Hall of the Novice, for example, claims to teach players how to play in a group. In reality it just teaches you how to handle those solo instances with a bunch of NPCs better. Because yeah, in those you better take mobs off the healer for yourself as a DPS because the NPC tank sure as heck won't.

But in a group with other people? That's terrible advice. And nowhere during the DPS hall of the novice are you told to stand near your healer. Nowhere are you told what keys/buttons to press to target the same enemy as your tank (I know there's a hotkey for that on keyboard, but can't seem to find it on controller). And by the time you get there some folks don't have their AoE yet, so there's nothing in there about "It's best to AoE at #of enemies" etc. etc.

But worst of all is that it's optional. A tutorial is pointless if you can let brand new players skip it. I don't think it would be that hard to add a trigger in the game that says "we see you have a level 50 character on your account already. Would you like to skip this tutorial?".

On the flip side SE also needs to put its foot down on the difficulty they want their game to be. Being wishy washy only makes the issue worse. No: as a casual I don't want Dark Souls levels of difficulty in the content I want to play, because I don't find that fun. However I don't want my game to be a walk in the park either.

And believe it or not, that's most casuals. The players people in this thread are talking about are (usually) just plain selfish and bad players. You won't change those people no matter what SE implements.


Why I think it's also a community problem:

This is the problem with forum discussions on this stuff. The average forum goer is not the average player. Lots of players who have a significantly lower skill level and find this stuff difficult are barely represented here at all, while the high end skill level is vastly over represented. That skews things towards "everything is easy and everyone's bad!" when maybe the real answer is "it's not as easy as you think, and you're better than you think you are."

The above quote really can't get enough likes from me. People online are incredibly narrow minded (myself included). That's due to our ability to see people being taken away. We're all a bunch of avatars behind a screen. It's real easy to fall into the mindset that how you like to play and how you see the game is what most other people see or should see.

This next bit is not a response to any one person in particular. It's more to just help frame where I'm coming from:

Just because I'm casual doesn't mean I spend less time on this game than a raider or care less about this game and its community than a raider. Video games are my hobby. I play a wide variety of genres on multiple platforms and probably spend more time than I should on them, have since I was a child. I'm in FFXIV a ton. I just don't like grappling with the "hardcore" aspects of games.

I find them boring, believe it or not. The final boss of a Final Fantasy or similar game? I'm down for that. I'll gladly spend an entire weekend trying to figure out how to beat a classic SE boss. Constantly doing the same one or two end game dungeons, fighting the same bosses, for weeks on end? That's horribly boring to me. At least while doing the MSQ I see different locations and meet people along the way (not saying you don't meet folks while raiding. You clearly do, but it's a lot more organized and thought out rather than just casual/random happenstance).

That's not a slam against any raider here. That's just me stating why I, and a lot of other casuals, don't personally enjoy raiding.

I bring this up because a lot of people's view on what a casual is or isn't is heavily skewed, and as has been said, not many casuals come to the official forums to provide the other side of the coin to look at.

The people players in this thread want to change, frankly, never will. The people who straight up don't care if they stand in the bad. The people who snap back when they're given good advice. Like I already said: those aren't casuals (in the sense you're thinking), those are just selfish players. You're better off either ignoring or kicking those players than trying to make them better (of course try giving advice first. If they ignore you after that, that's their problem).

Which is why I can't understand why people get offended when they're told "play with your FC or a static." That's the point of guilds/free companies/statics in MMOs. To find people who enjoy playing in a similar fashion that you do so that you don't have to deal with random people that may disagree with you and how you play. If you willingly step into a dungeon pug you're going to be playing with anyone of any age and skill level. And you're far more likely to run into the community's bad eggs because, not surprisingly, they don't make the same effort to meet folks to form FCs and statics like you do.

To end this already long post, it's vitally important to remember that all kinds of people play this game. When housing was opened for this patch I saw one guy post on Reddit that he was really excited to tell his 11 year old sister he got the house she's been wanting for years for her.

That bears repeating: 11 years old. And I'm sure that's not the youngest person who plays this game or attempts higher difficulty stuff.

Unless you do get on Discord or Skype to personally get to know who you're playing with, you don't know if the people in a PUG with you are 5 or 50+. You don't know if they have disabilities or not. So simply just assuming bad play or lack of achievements is due to laziness is terribly narrow minded. It's just as bad as that player we all hate that cries "I'll play how I want" and not bother to improve.

Now should that hamper your gameplay? Well no, ideally it shouldn't. However that's the risk you take when you interact with a bunch of strangers on the internet at random.

So while I am all for folks asking for harder content or for SE to settle on a distinct difficulty curve for their game, I also think this game's community really needs to keep an open mind. We no longer live in an age where only folks of certain age groups and demographics play these games. If you're not willing to be open minded about that, then no amount of changes SE makes is going to help you deal with randoms better.

That said I'm overall actually pretty happy at quite a few of the responses in this thread, because most of you (including OP) have shown that you are open minded. That last bit was more for the large number of posts I've seen that indicate otherwise.

[Eisenhower]

Because there is a huge difficulty gap between MSQ content and raiding.[...]

I get the feeling this has been mentioned already - especially since you noted that others have asked for a distinct difficulty curve - so here's to reiteration (i guess ¯\_(ツ)_/¯): XIV definitely suffers from the lack of a good difficulty curve. This encompasses everything from overworld, to levelling content, and up to raid/savage content.

When 99% of the things we fight are nothing more than damage sponges with a cleave or occasional area attack tacked on, what incentive could there possibly be for a player to improve their performance? As we make our way through the game and grow in strength, the amount of involvement when fighting monsters should grow in pace. Our skills as players are honed through use - a help text can only take us part of the way. Naturally, we should be rewarded in turn for performing well.

The point is not to populate the overworld with savage encounters that ruin our day at a glance. But if a player is eased into complexity over the course of 70 levels, it wouldn't be far-fetched to see more capable players on all levels as compared to getting to the level cap and getting a trial by fire through EX primals and Savage-type raids.

[KaivaC]

snip

You realize that you are providing more of a perspective from a casual non-raider's side, and I highly appreciate that. I've often though about bringing this same discussion over to the reddit side of things, but...eh...I honestly don't know how that would go, but I do know it's a good resource for casting a net towards the casual side of the house and attempting to discuss it there as well. But it's also reddit, so it could result in the post being deleted, or bans, and for that reason, I'm thankful the mods have allowed this thread to continue.

True, a lot of people play differently. I find myself wanting to personally challenge Ultimate, but I'm not at that level. I'm also hyper-competitive if I don't check myself. It would be unfair to suggest that all players should aim to raid...it would be insulting if I ever suggested that. I agree about the tutorials...you end up having to do a trial-by-fire once you hit Satasha. I actually wiped my first time there, as a DPS. I do wish for something appropriately difficult, though, but only on an optional level. It'll do more harm than good, in my opinion, if a jump in difficulty with dungeons started happening with 4.3. I should've probably clarified my personal view on how I view players, which is casual, casual-midcore, and hardcore.

Thank you for posting that. As you may or may not see, it took me a while to respond because you make some really valid points.

[Dzian]

I should've probably clarified my personal view on how I view players, which is casual, casual-midcore, and hardcore.

I think a big part of the problem is that these categories have pretty much been thrown around so much that they've lost all definition. Not aiming this st anyone particular but..
What is a casual player?
What is a hard core player?

There's so many answers for each of those that it becomes a meaningless
Term when used in discussions such as this.

"Ramping up the difficulty curve will push the casuals away"
Really. Who will it push away? I think a lot of players who would like to see an increased difficulty curve would actually consider themselves to be casual players for one reason or another.

I've never considered myself hard core. Even when I was doing coils in ARR I was a self proclaimed casual monkey That would do coil on an when I could be bothered basis. No static no raiding groups just set up a pf whenever I felt like giving it a go. Absolute minimum of dedication but at the same time the fact i cleared coil apparantly meant i was some hard core elitist jerk.

And while I never did savage in Alexander I did clear all the ex primal and farm various weapons and stuff but again on the same casual monkey when I can be bothered attitude but running around with primal weapons apparently meant I was hard core....

It's only got worse over time as well. It's practically impossible to accurately describe a casual / hard core gamer these days. To some people just being a raider makes you hard core even if you enter savage like once a week and it takes you several weeks to get a clear....

He'll people even said potd 101-200 was hard core content and impossible for casuals. Yet you could quite literally get 3 friends and spend 20 minutes a week doing it. 10 floors here and there as casual as you liked

[Senliten]

I think a big part of the problem is that these categories have pretty much been thrown around so much that they've lost all definition. Not aiming this st anyone particular but..
What is a casual player?
What is a hard core player?

Hilariously enough, this was just talked on about over at the EQ boards, but i'll be honest to say a few answers over there feel like a common staple that would be a general concept of what the two and how the two are differed from.

Hardcore... learns to actually play the characters they play and utilizes all of the abilities the class has to offer. This doesn't just apply to their main, it applies to most of their alts as well. They will get good gear, good augs, max out all of the GOOD AA's for the class first and then just max out the AA's. Get all heroic AA's even though it's going back to old content.

Casuals... generally don't care about most of the above. As long as stuff dies, and things are enjoyable - all is well.

Note... neither is a negative. It's simply how the game is played by different people. The negativity comes into play with some people jump from EverQuest to Forum Quest and start making silly demands.

The item bolded is something I feel resonates heavily back over here, and where I feel the current situation stems from, especially with the usual posts of crying to "nerf content that requires some mental concepts of how to play the basic concept of this games mechanics." (i.e ShinEx, Rhabanastre, Amdapor Keep, back when it was one of the first few 50 dungeons we could do, etc..). As someone previously stated, this is an issue that must be resolved from both ends. Dev's need to stop catering to every single posts about crying to make content easier and take a firm stance to tell people to 'learn, contribute, and play'. And players need to learn that this game is not 'netflix fantasy' and it is an MMO that requires you to work together with other players and do what is expected of your class and of the game at the most basic of levels (dodge the pretty lights, stack with stack markers, place markers, do whatever visual or sound que that is given by the content which is more generous than other MMO's and its content out there, etc..), but because players have to go and do this, they want to cry that they have to move more than 2 feet and can't simply mash until it works, hence the 'silly demands' we see to 'nerf this or that.'

I'll be honest, I am still to this day wondering why SE even nerfed AK, the day I first saw the Bee's no longer spawning for burn i had a complete WTF moment and asked long and hard how was it even hard, when it was simple situational awareness and knowing the basics, be they obtained from learning the dungeon or just reading up on it somewhere.

[DreadRabbit]

snip

No sweat Everyone's got lives outside of these forums so I don't expect anything immediately (or ever really. I figure if I don't get responded to people just don't want to. And that's fine).

But I do want you to know that I think these discussions are important to have, and I hope that I didn't make you feel you were wrong to bring the topic up (because I don't think that at all!). Games should provide a challenge for its players, no matter what skill level they are at.

The point is not to populate the overworld with savage encounters that ruin our day at a glance. But if a player is eased into complexity over the course of 70 levels, it wouldn't be far-fetched to see more capable players on all levels as compared to getting to the level cap and getting a trial by fire through EX primals and Savage-type raids.

I agree with you.