The general player base needs to improve

[Bourne_Endeavor]

And then we'll be back to Amdapor Keep 2.0 where half DF parties couldn't make it past demon wall. Or even worse, Pharos Sirius, where people wouldn't even bother to queue up because the first boss overwhelmed most DF parties with an army of explosive hellhounds.
What are these "acceptable standards" you are talking about? Where do you exactly draw the line? .

Significant problem with both those dungeons is there was a faster alternative. A proper curve funnels everyone through the same route. Weeping City worked wonderfully in this regard because you either pushed yourself or you weren't upgrading your tomestone gear/obtaining a i230 drop. Had Stormblood began with dungeons of that caliber for Expert, you either do them or accept a less efficient way to cap for the week. You'll be amazed at how quickly people motivate themselves when reasonably pushed. We need to emphasise reasonably here because, no, dungeons shouldn't be some insurmountable activity on par with EX Primals. But I think Expert dungeons should require more than a pulse.

Your so called "good guys" that only "offer friendly advice" and think that it's the rest of the community that "refuses to learn" are very often people that should be more concerned about solving their own anger issues rather than trying to change the rest of the players so that they meet their own "acceptable standards". I have no idea who the TC is, but I'm very familiar with this sort of player profile that claims to have just given advice when on reality ingame they are nothing but angry bullies ready to rage at the very first mistake your party makes.

You realize the inherent hypocrisy here, yes? By casting a wide, generalizing net, you look just as toxic as the players you're accusing. When people cite those "refusing to learn," they mean dungeon runs where DPS will not AoE no matter how often they are asked; any job who has not even the basic idea how their job works despite being at max level. In plenty of cases, it's these people who get the most irate despite causing the problem. Or am I an "angry bully" for expecting you to press your AoE abilities when I pull ten mobs and you're wearing better gear than I am?

[Gallus]

Can hardly call it baseless, but whatever, didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, when your opinion differs from the other one/s accusing them of being something you are against shouldn't be all that terrible. Maybe I could've been a bit more civilized with the "angry bullies" part, just replace those words for "temperamental folks" so that we don't have to go on an endless discussion about how disrespectful and terribly mean I've been by saying what I said, but just like I'm ignoring all the posts insulting, mocking or calling me toxic, TC can do exactly the same if he/she knows I'm wrong about him/her (in fact, I think himself/herself has done a much better work at that than the rest of the people). I don't think what I said was as terrible as you are making it out to be anyway.

You'll be amazed at how quickly people motivate themselves when reasonably pushed.

Gordias and A3S are a good example. People were surely very motivated with those turns and their tight DPS checks. They were so motivated that more than half the playerbase quitted the game. The term "reasonably" is ambiguous.

You realize the inherent hypocrisy here, yes? By casting a wide, generalizing net, you look just as toxic as the players you're accusing. When people cite those "refusing to learn," they mean dungeon runs where DPS will not AoE no matter how often they are asked; any job who has not even the basic idea how their job works despite being at max level. In plenty of cases, it's these people who get the most irate despite causing the problem. Or am I an "angry bully" for expecting you to press your AoE abilities when I pull ten mobs and you're wearing better gear than I am?

So what if they don't want to AOE, what are you going to do about it? Ask SE to make people use AOE actions on your dungeon runs? There's a limit to what SE can do. You guys think it's SE who is spoiling people by making things too easy. I don't agree with that. I think what we have now is what most people legit want, and I think you are in the minority here. Hunts are a good example of this. They are extremely easy content with high reward. At times, they are so crowded my screen can't even load the amount of people that are gathered next to them.

[HyoMinPark]

Can hardly call it baseless, but whatever, didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, when your opinion differs from the other one/s accusing them of being something you are against shouldn't be all that terrible. Maybe I could've been a bit more civilized with the "angry bullies" part, just replace those words for "temperamental folks" so that we don't have to go on an endless discussion about how disrespectful and terribly mean I've been by saying what I said, but just like I'm ignoring all the posts insulting, mocking or calling me toxic, TC can do exactly the same if he/she knows I'm wrong about him/her (in fact, I think himself/herself has done a much better work at that than the rest of the people).

It’s baseless when you make them about someone whom you don’t even know. Or have never interacted with. You don’t know anything about them to even give the slightest insinuation that they’re actually a jerk; so just assuming they’re a jerk because, what? A thread they made that you don’t seem to agree with? That’s baseless. Kaiva has been civil in their thread; there has been no name-calling on their end. Where as, your behavior has been fairly uncalled for with quite a fair bit of name-calling, so people have reason to tell you as such.

And maybe Kaiva is better at ignoring people being rude towards them, but I’ve never had very high tolerance for people that just assume things.

So what if they don't want to AOE, what are you going to do about it?

If you repeatedly ask DPS to AOE during large pulls, and they still refuse to do so, then I will gladly click “yes” for any vote kick. Because they aren’t pulling their weight, but expecting everyone else to do more damage to make up for them not wanting to hit their AOE skill.

Would you be okay with a tank that didn’t want to hold a boss? What about a healer that doesn’t want to heal? Or a tank or healer that only does half of their job? A DPS refusing to AOE a large pull is doing half the damage (less, actually) that they can actually do, thereby doing half of their job....which is to deal as much damage as possible. I don’t understand this double standard of tanks/healers must do 100%, but if the SAM doesn’t want to AOE or the NIN feels like doing 50%, that’s a-okay.

[Gallus]

It’s baseless when you make them about someone whom you don’t even know. Or have never interacted with.

You almost make it sound like this is strange in a forum?

Anyway, we could go on and on about this. We clearly have different views about this community. I think it's doing fine, and I think it's healthier than ever (couldn't say the same thing in HW).
From what I gather, some of you think a lot of people are spoiled, lazy and that SE should somehow obligate them to perform better. I don't see this problem. All I'm seeing are people that play at different levels because they feel different about this game or dedicate more time to it, etc.

Feel free to vote kick anyone in a dungeon who isn't doing the rotation you feel they should be doing, go ahead, you could be kicking someone who either just made it to 70, isn't very familiar with their aoe rotation, recently came back or simply wants to put into practice their single target rotation because they are still not 100% familiar with it. I'm certainly proud of have never done so and I will continue doing the same thing.

[HyoMinPark]

Feel free to vote kick anyone who isn't doing the rotation you feel they should be doing, go ahead, you could be kicking someone who either just made it to 70, isn't very familiar with their aoe rotation or simply wants to put into practice their single target rotation because they are still practicing it. I'm certainly proud of have never done so and I will continue doing the same thing.

Well, most DPS jobs’ AOEs are learned at level 30~40 by the absolute latest (barring a few exceptions), some much earlier than that (BRD learns Quick Nock at level 18). If a DPS has had a skill for 30~40+ levels, and still cannot use them at level 70 in current endgame dungeons...then I don’t even know what to tell them. When you explicitly ask for their AOEs in chat multiple times, and they refuse to cooperate, well...sorry, I don’t have much sympathy for them.

As for practicing a single-target rotation, do it on the bosses. Not on the pack of 5+ mobs that are taking forever and a day to die. Or, better yet, practice on a striking dummy first, until it’s border muscle-memory, and then take it into duties, and practice on bosses, or on packs that are 3 mobs are less (because AOE is a gain at 3+ mobs)

You almost make it sound like this is strange in a forum?

What’s so strange about asking you to just be respectful toward someone unless they give you a good reason not to be? Has Kaiva given you a reason to respond as you have been responding in this thread; an actual good reason other than they said something you disagree with? If not, then you’re being needlessly rude.

[KaivaC]

Feel free to vote kick anyone in a dungeon who isn't doing the rotation you feel they should be doing, go ahead, you could be kicking someone who either just made it to 70, isn't very familiar with their aoe rotation or simply wants to put into practice their single target rotation because they are still practicing it. I'm certainly proud of have never done so and I will continue doing the same thing.

Lazy...sometimes, yes. Other times, they may flat out not know what they're doing wrong. The only times I've really ever personally initiated a vote kick was from a legitimate AFK person in a dungeon. My time limit is usually 5 minutes. I'll ask for AOE if I'm tanking and making a wall-to-wall pull because one can only rotate CDs for so long. If someone wants to practice single target rotation in an AOE scenario, while I won't really call them out on that, there are other places for it unless its a boss. Dummies for example. All the starting areas for the first three city-states have them. SE has already done enough in giving players the tools to play at a good level - it's up to players now to utilize what's available in their skill set, if they so please. This goes especially for those players wanting to jump into content at lvl 70 outside of the MSQ dungeons.

If they so choose, that is.

[Gallus]

Lazy...sometimes, yes. Other times, they may flat out not know what they're doing wrong. The only times I've really ever personally initiated a vote kick was from a legitimate AFK person in a dungeon. My time limit is usually 5 minutes. I'll ask for AOE if I'm tanking and making a wall-to-wall pull because one can only rotate CDs for so long. If someone wants to practice single target rotation in an AOE scenario, while I won't really call them out on that, there are other places for it unless its a boss. Dummies for example. All the starting areas for the first three city-states have them. SE has already done enough in giving players the tools to play at a good level - it's up to players now to utilize what's available in their skill set, if they so please. This goes especially for those players wanting to jump into content at lvl 70 outside of the MSQ dungeons.

If they so choose, that is.

Completely agree with that. Practicing their single target rotations on a dungeon when they should be playing for the team and AOE the group of mobs sounds selfish and isn't the perfect scenario... but nothing's perfect, ever, honestly. Going as far as to start a vote kick against these players? I say no to that. The only players I've kicked were people that were verbally harassing me or my group or were afk for a reasonable amount of time with no explanation given.

[Tridus]

Feel free to vote kick anyone in a dungeon who isn't doing the rotation you feel they should be doing, go ahead, you could be kicking someone who either just made it to 70, isn't very familiar with their aoe rotation, recently came back or simply wants to put into practice their single target rotation because they are still not 100% familiar with it. I'm certainly proud of have never done so and I will continue doing the same thing.

If someone isn't doing an AoE rotation, that sounds like a great time to offer some advice. Because if they are new or returning, they might not know how to do it.

Which kinda brings us back around to "offering unsolicited advice is rude/toxic" that's also been said in this thread. When someone is doing something obviously wrong, the two most likely explanations for why are that they don't know any better or that they don't care. One of those has a chance of being corrected with some polite advice, which, if accepted, will help that player in everything they do going forward. That sounds like a thing we should be encouraging people attempt first, before resorting to the kick button, right?

Yet, so many people trying to offer advice get slammed by the community for it.

[Gallus]

If someone isn't doing an AoE rotation, that sounds like a great time to offer some advice. Because if they are new or returning, they might not know how to do it.

Which kinda brings us back around to "offering unsolicited advice is rude/toxic" that's also been said in this thread. When someone is doing something obviously wrong, the two most likely explanations for why are that they don't know any better or that they don't care. One of those has a chance of being corrected with some polite advice, which, if accepted, will help that player in everything they do going forward. That sounds like a thing we should be encouraging people attempt first, before resorting to the kick button, right?

Yet, so many people trying to offer advice get slammed by the community for it.

And if they don't know any better, you think they'll magically learn to AOE when you tell them how to in the same dungeon you are playing with them? I'll answer for you, they won't. And then my guess is that we'll go to the "I assume they are refusing to learn/they don't care" bit and proceed to kick them thinking you are being politically correct here.