Developers, Please Address Samurai Kicking

[KaivaC]

If you're with a DRG/NIN, aren't they also buffing the SAM?

SAM brings no utility. If they aren't doing the most damage in the party, they are a wasted slot. That's not trying to be elitist. That's how the job is designed. The only job a good SAM should have to fight against is a good BLM.

I don't play NIN, but I've played with NINs. What buff are you talking about, as far as DRG goes? Battle Litany affects the whole party. If you're talking about the Sight, that's highly dependent on the DRG and who they choose to give the Sight to. Ideally, whomever is putting out the best DPS + has their own damage up buff.

I'm not arguing that SAM has no utility, but a SAM shouldn't be automatically kicked from an open DPS party finder group just because of that. If it's a premade, sure, do whatever you'd like. If you don't want a SAM, adjust the slots so you don't get a SAM entering your group. On that matter, BLMs don't bring any utility either. Yet I'm constantly seeing them in many groups progging through current endgame content.

[Jijifli]

I don't play NIN, but I've played with NINs. What buff are you talking about, as far as DRG goes? Battle Litany affects the whole party. If you're talking about the Sight, that's highly dependent on the DRG and who they choose to give the Sight to. Ideally, whomever is putting out the best DPS + has their own damage up buff.

I'm not arguing that SAM has no utility, but a SAM shouldn't be automatically kicked from an open DPS party finder group just because of that. If it's a premade, sure, do whatever you'd like. If you don't want a SAM, adjust the slots so you don't get a SAM entering your group. On that matter, BLMs don't bring any utility either. Yet I'm constantly seeing them in many groups progging through current endgame content.

You stated a DRG/NIN team can own a good chunk of the dps so SAM can't be at top dps. To start, if you have a SAM with the NIN/DRG to compare, then isn't most of that utility going to boost the SAM's damage too? You even said it, Litany is aoe, and for NIN, Trick boosts everyone's damage.

And if you don't have a DRG/NIN team to compare in that party, why are you comparing someone to dps that aren't in the party? Shouldn't you focus more on how much they're doing in the party? When the AST is outdamaging the SAM maybe they shouldn't be in the party.

[KaivaC]

You stated a DRG/NIN team can own a good chunk of the dps so SAM can't be at top dps.

I literally never said or implied that about a SAM. At all.

You even said it, Litany is aoe, and for NIN, Trick boosts everyone's damage.

I don't NIN (yet), but if I recall, you can only pull off a Trick at the beginning of a fight, because of Hide, right? If that's the case, the Trick only boosts damage if everybody is attacking from the rear. Which...doesn't really help classes that don't have rear potencies or True North.

And if you don't have a DRG/NIN team to compare in that party, why are you comparing someone to dps that aren't in the party? Shouldn't you focus more on how much they're doing in the party? When the AST is outdamaging the SAM maybe they shouldn't be in the party.

What are you talking about? Quit putting words in my mouth - you quoted me, you show me exactly where I am comparing things. Since you seem to be...I dunno, misquoting me, or picking words from wherever and just making arguments that I haven't even said, how about I clarify this (even though I thought I was pretty clear when I originally posted in this thread): if someone is willing to kick a SAM from a PF with no job restrictions aside from double classes, then that person is an idiot. If they don't want a SAM, then restrict the class before setting up a PF. If an AST is outdamaging a SAM, then that is a major problem on the part of the SAM because AST is more of a support healer than a damaging healer. Generally. But I have no idea why you even brought up the AST argument when I didn't even compare classes in the first place.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

I don't NIN (yet), but if I recall, you can only pull off a Trick at the beginning of a fight, because of Hide, right? If that's the case, the Trick only boosts damage if everybody is attacking from the rear. Which...doesn't really help classes that don't have rear potencies or True North.

Trick attack effects all damage on the boss for 10 seconds. You only have to be behind the boss or using true north to APPLY trick attack.

Also, you get the same effects as hide from suiton, which means every 60 seconds in a fight, you can use trick attack.

[KaivaC]

Trick attack effects all damage on the boss for 10 seconds. You only have to be behind the boss or using true north to APPLY trick attack.

Also, you get the same effects as hide from suiton, which means every 60 seconds in a fight, you can use trick attack.

I kinda figured it was something like that. I only have experience as a Rogue, so I wasn't sure what NIN had.

[Joe777]

I kinda figured it was something like that. I only have experience as a Rogue, so I wasn't sure what NIN had.

Just want to point out that attempting to sneak up on a boss doesn't work. They detect you and remove your Hide status before you get close enough to use TA. You might be able to get in TA if you Shukuchi + TA quickly enough but I doubt it. In order to make Hide more useful though SE added a new effect to it with SB: reset Ninjutsu cooldown when you successfully use Hide. So whether you actually get in the TA via hiding or not, hiding before a boss battle ensures you can get in a TA since Suiton can be used immediately.

[Jijifli]

But I have no idea why you even brought up the AST argument when I didn't even compare classes in the first place.

You obviously haven't seen what a really good BLM has been able to put out lately. Not to mention that with the right setup, a DRG/NIN team can outright own a good chunk of the DPS. If you are the type that kicks for a SAM not being in first place, then wow...

That came off as comparing to me. We said they should be first and you brought up BLM and the DRG/NIN combo. Should the person leave SAM out of the list? Yes, I'm not going to argue that away. What could help is some more good SAM's though.

Since I gotta requote that comment about kicking SAM's that aren't top, what else does SAM bring besides dps? Why would I bring it instead of someone else I'm sure is going to do more damage and I know has group utility? If people want to play the cool SAM job, I have no issues. If they want to run that content, again no issue. If it feels like 95% of the playerbase can't play one properly though, I may start having an issue.

Actually it's sad when I have to farm o7n for the spring and I praise a party for not having a SAM because now people might move.

[KaivaC]

Just want to point out that attempting to sneak up on a boss doesn't work. They detect you and remove your Hide status before you get close enough to use TA. You might be able to get in TA if you Shukuchi + TA quickly enough but I doubt it. In order to make Hide more useful though SE added a new effect to it with SB: reset Ninjutsu cooldown when you successfully use Hide. So whether you actually get in the TA via hiding or not, hiding before a boss battle ensures you can get in a TA since Suiton can be used immediately.

Gotcha, that makes sense. I can't really comment about NIN because I have no experience on the class - I leave that to those familiar with it to explain this to me

That came off as comparing to me.

I am usually a very direct person. If I want to compare jobs, I would've compared jobs. Comparison was nowhere close to my original post, which brings me to...

We said they should be first and you brought up BLM and the DRG/NIN combo. Should the person leave SAM out of the list? Yes, I'm not going to argue that away. What could help is some more good SAM's though.

I brought those up as examples. BLMs can literally turret down if they know the fight and nuke the hell out of a boss. I'm not arguing leaving a SAM off the PF list - that's the leader's group, it's their rules on whether or not to exclude SAMs. I have not disputed this. Again, and I am saying this once more - if the PF leader doesn't restrict the SAM job from their PF when they first set it up, then it's douchey behavior to kick a SAM as soon as they enter the PF. It's not against the rules, but it's kinda messed up at the same time.

Since I gotta requote that comment about kicking SAM's that aren't top, what else does SAM bring besides dps? Why would I bring it instead of someone else I'm sure is going to do more damage and I know has group utility? If people want to play the cool SAM job, I have no issues. If they want to run that content, again no issue. If it feels like 95% of the playerbase can't play one properly though, I may start having an issue.

Then set up your PF to restrict SAM. I've been saying that this entire time. If you do a PF and leave the SAM slot open, don't act like one of those entitled pricks who automatically kick a job, because you're just wasting that player's time. If you don't want the job in your group, then make sure they can't join. If you fail to do that and they join, you don't know how good or bad they are until you jump into the instance (or you check their FFLOGS.)

Thats not even kind of how Trick Attack works. At least look up the ability before talking about it.

I was responding, and was promptly corrected on how Trick Attack works by Valkryie and Joe777...so yeah, maybe read what else was said before jumping on my case about this?

[Mavrias]

I don't NIN (yet), but if I recall, you can only pull off a Trick at the beginning of a fight, because of Hide, right? If that's the case, the Trick only boosts damage if everybody is attacking from the rear. Which...doesn't really help classes that don't have rear potencies or True North

Thats not even kind of how Trick Attack works. At least look up the ability before talking about it.