Tank Balance

[aeoncs]

being world first means nothing more when the guy how play it was not a tank and lvl up DRK for the fight alone, DRK is the worst tank in every aspect, worst dps, worst defense,utility and movility and SE dont give a s*** about this isues.

It means something, alright. It means that you can clear the hardest content in the game faster than anyone else even when playing a job that is, according to many, "the worst in every aspect". It also means that DRK is nowhere near as bad as you and many others are making it out to be.

That doesn't mean that DRK is fine, the job definitely has problems, but I'll say it again: It's nowhere near as bad as HW Paladin and yet somehow people are making a much bigger deal out of balancing issues than ever before. I wonder why.

[shao32]

It means something, alright. It means that you can clear the hardest content in the game faster than anyone else even when playing a job that is, according to many, "the worst in every aspect". It also means that DRK is nowhere near as bad as you and many others are making it out to be.

That doesn't mean that DRK is fine, the job definitely has problems, but I'll say it again: It's nowhere near as bad as HW Paladin and yet somehow people are making a much bigger deal out of balancing issues than ever before. I wonder why.

the diference betwen PLD on HW and DRK on SB is after the buffs HW PLD was pretty fine in equal term withs DRK and offer utility while DRK offer some extra dps, but the problem was WAR with they mandaotory eyes buffs and insane levels of personal dps more that anything.

DRK SB on the other hand dont offer nothing, PLD on HW still have things to offer on the table, DRK SB not, HW was more WARs fault that PLD.

our biggest grip about the balance issues is SE apart of promise us a fair balance for the lack of a new job is how they ignore our feedback and data on purpose.

[aeoncs]

the diference betwen PLD on HW and DRK on SB is after the buffs HW PLD was pretty fine in equal term withs DRK

Ehm... what? Even during Creator, arguably the jobs best time in HW, their DPS was up to 25% lower than a WARs and up to 15% lower than DRKs. In today's standards that's like doing up to 1,1~k DPS less than one of your job counterparts. In Gordias and Midas the average difference was even worse than that. DRK was also a considerably better MT for 90% of the bosses, with PLD being downright useless in some encounters.

Nice definition of "pretty fine" you got there. But we're going off-topic. The point remains that DRK is perfectly viable and just needs some minor tweaks, that SE isn't willing to do right now for whatever reasons, to be on par.

[shao32]

snip

Thats only if you look at dps numbers and in phisical fights PLD was superior MT and they utility was and is still bastly superior, fight desings its what make it worse at the eyes of the players.

And no DRK dont meed just "minor" tweaks, dark passenger need to be fixed, shadow wall too, bloodspiller relation with TBN, plunge, blood price and grit per equal and we still have the problem of lack of phisical mitigation and trash utility while being the worst on dps.

[aeoncs]

Thats only if you look at dps numbers and in phisical fights PLD was superior MT and they utility was and is still bastly superior, fight desings its what make it worse at the eyes of the players.

10-25% isn't "only", it's absolutely bonkers. As I said, Paladin was a superior tank in 10% of the fights, pretty much only Refurbisher and Cruise Chaser which is why PLD was actually good in Creator, while it downright sucked in most others and was always, without exception, a horrible OT. It had problems with job design, raid design and DPS. So yeah, being a decent tank in all scenarios > being a good MT in 10-20% of them; and that's assuming that DRK stays the way it is through all of Stormblood.

I think there needs to be a bit more than just viable, for thought, if a job did decent dps while only hitting a single button, can we can consider it viable, but is it good for job design? Probably not, and obviously this is an exaggeration but in regards to mechanics it's definitely worthy of discussion.
Likewise, this is especially noticeable when a lot of the Dark Knight issues aren't even related to its dps or ability to complete content but rather just a lack-thereof or simply confusing design decisions like Dark Passenger/Shadow Wall. The same can be said with Warriors now, they're the top tank DPS but the job's mechanics keep changing every patch and it's throwing people around wondering what's going on.

A lot of the tank issues aren't just about the DPS, and in Heavensward a lot of the Paladin issues weren't about DPS.

That's the thing, I never disagreed with that, did I? I argued against people calling DRK trash or useless, when it isn't. It definitely needs love in terms of job design, but that's a different matter and since I haven't played SB DRK at 70, I don't want to comment on matters I have no first-hand experience with.
But DPS was definitely a huge part of the problems the HW Paladin had. It pretty much had design problems that were as severe as some of the ones DRK is having now (e.g. Oaths breaking combos, Magic not being blockable etc.) on top of having considerably worse DPS and being reliant on raid/encounter design.

[Kalocin]

The point remains that DRK is perfectly viable and just needs some minor tweaks, that SE isn't willing to do right now for whatever reasons, to be on par.

I think there needs to be a bit more than just viable, for thought, if a job did decent dps while only hitting a single button, can we can consider it viable, but is it good for job design? Probably not, and obviously this is an exaggeration but in regards to mechanics it's definitely worthy of discussion.
Likewise, this is especially noticeable when a lot of the Dark Knight issues aren't even related to its dps or ability to complete content but rather just a lack-thereof or simply confusing design decisions like Dark Passenger/Shadow Wall. The same can be said with Warriors now, they're the top tank DPS but the job's mechanics keep changing every patch and it's throwing people around wondering what's going on.

A lot of the tank issues aren't just about the DPS, and in Heavensward a lot of the Paladin issues weren't about DPS.

[Chrono_Rising]

Nice definition of "pretty fine" you got there. But we're going off-topic. The point remains that DRK is perfectly viable and just needs some minor tweaks, that SE isn't willing to do right now for whatever reasons, to be on par.

I think this just a semantics point. If they tweaked half our skill set to bring us up to par I think most would be happy. Lowering some mana costs (I'm looking at you dark passenger), lowering the cooldown on shadow wall, raising bloodspiller potency a small amount relative to soul eater combo, allowed Soul Eater to generate HP out of grit, increasing mana generation when not in grit, and other QoL adjustments like reducing animation lock on plunge, giving plunge a longer range, reducing the double weave. Those would all be very welcome changes. Each is a small tweak, there is just alot of them, so again I feel like the disagreement is one of semantics (large amount of small tweaks maybe?).

I also think a large amount of player frustration is caused by the developers telling players dark is fine and needs nothing after multiple threads to the contrary. I don't think that is unique to dark knight though, I think many jobs have been waiting for that discussion. Again, dark knight is viable, as you said, but at the same time it often times feels like it offers little of value for the amount of mitigation, utility, and damage that it puts out.

[Kalocin]

I also think a large amount of player frustration is caused by the developers telling players dark is fine and needs nothing after multiple threads to the contrary. I don't think that is unique to dark knight though, I think many jobs have been waiting for that discussion.

Part of the problem is not just being told fine but rather the player base seems confused as to what Dark Knights should be good with (Pld = Utility, War = Dps), especially now that Stormblood muddied the waters here. War has more utility while Drk seems lacking in identity and purpose.