Why Does It Feel Like Poor Play Is Acceptable (I'm Venting.)

[HyoMinPark]

What's the point of having an echo chamber forum? If no one voices opinions which differ, people assume they are the majority or somehow innately right

I happily welcome opposing viewpoints and opinions when I’m having discussions with people. But simply saying something like “I don’t care” is not offering anything to the discussion other than just stating your views on the matter, in my opinion.

A lot of discussions about topics like parsers or DPS debates (regarding all three roles) tend to have opposing opinions boil down to “Well, I don’t like [discussion’s topic], therefore it shouldn’t be in the game/I shouldn’t have to do it” or “I don’t care about [discussion’s topic], therefore why should anyone else care”. Very rarely do I see solid arguments debating the opposite side when it comes to parsing or to DPS debates (healer DPS, tank DPS, DPS AOEing, etc.).

[Ayer2015]

snip

Well, the difference in opinion regarding parsers, or player performance, really comes down to what content its in reference to. Its clear many people on the forums have certain expectations regarding player performance, usually boiling down to completing the content in a certain time frame. The counter argument to that, relating to DF roulettes at least, is casual "non-optimal' players deserve content as well. A lot of the friction comes from people expecting Savage skill level play in normal dungeon content. Many will say, just try, but that line isn't fooling anyone since trying is relative.
Its reasonable to say that if people expect a certain style of play, they should make their own groups rather than expect random people through a DF tool to bend to their every whim. With that said, I think its fair to have higher expectations relating to EX primal and savage raiding, since those types of content are designed for a different player base.

[HyoMinPark]

Well, the difference in opinion regarding parsers, or player performance, really comes down to what content its in reference to.

Fair enough. A lot of pro-parsers specifically refer to Extremes, Savage, and Ultimate. A certain level of performance is expected in those types of content, and hence why people that are pro-parser talk about parsers with regards to said content. Because you can clear a dungeon with minimal effort, but Extremes/Savage/Ultimate are an entirely different beast.

There are people out there that parse dungeons and 24-mans, but there is really no need to use them as some measurement of player performance when it comes to high-end content because the two are completely different. Which is why I always say, when people bring up the bad apples that harass in dungeons over parse numbers, that most serious raiders who parse would just laugh at them, because who cares about numbers in dungeons? Raiders barely care about Extreme primal numbers—most only care and look at numbers for relevant Savage content.

I sincerely doubt the pro-parser posters here want parsers just so they can judge when it comes to dungeons; a lot of them want them in content where they actually matter so as to watch performance, and to also hold people accountable if need be. Example: a DPS is complaining about low DPS and trash talking other players, but they are being outDPS’d by the tanks; people would like to be able to say to a person like that “Uh, hey, maybe you should quiet down a little bit because you’re doing less than the WAR...”.

Its clear many people on the forums have certain expectations regarding player performance, usually boiling down to completing the content in a certain time frame.

Farm groups for Extremes and Savage floors typically like fast; I don’t think that’s exclusive to just forum posters, since a lot of players I meet in-game who probably do not even look at these discussions say they would rather have faster and cleaner runs as opposed to the slower ones. Even before I started posting on here, I preferred faster and cleaner runs when I was pony farming (back in the day) as opposed to runs where we would wipe 5 times before getting a clear in (and, of course, no pony).

For dungeons, I think a lot of players would like to spend less than 30 minutes in most, because they are well-worn content for a lot of the more veteran players; my personal experience is that people tend to be more understanding when there are new players in the dungeons, but I know that’s not always the case. Expert, people like 15~20 minute runs because they are massively easier than leveling dungeons, and take even less effort. Plus, with Expert Roulette having such a small variety to it, people get sick of the content relatively quickly, and feel like it’s more of a daily chore. Myself, I avoid most roulettes and just cap via other means because the content just isn’t that interesting to me anymore after 2+ years of them being relatively the same.

The counter argument to that, relating to DF roulettes at least, is casual "non-optimal' players deserve content as well. A lot of the friction comes from people expecting Savage skill level play in normal dungeon content. Many will say, just try, but that line isn't fooling anyone since trying is relative.

I have to disagree with the bolded statement. I’ve never seen anyone argue that players should play to a Savage-level or 95th percentile level when it comes to dungeons. Asking DPS to AOE when needed is not the same as asking for Savage-level play. Asking a healer to not stand around idle for 80% of the dungeon is not the same as asking for 95th percentile play.

Its reasonable to say that if people expect a certain style of play, they should make their own groups rather than expect random people through a DF tool to bend to their every whim. With that said, I think its fair to have higher expectations relating to EX primal and savage raiding, since those types of content are designed for a different player base.

The same can be said for both sides though. If a player wants to be an Ice Mage, why should they expect 3/7/23 other randoms to be okay with that playstyle? Why can’t they make a PF looking for players that will let them be an Ice Mage? I think in DF, people just want players to put in effort and try. I don’t think they expect them to play to a Savage level, or even to a purple or blue level. They expect the basics (tanks to tank, hold aggro, use cooldowns; healers to heal when appropriate, DPS when they can, and not stand around idle; and DPS to DPS—this means using AOEings in packs of 3+ mobs and not single target if they are in content where they have access to AOE skills).

With regards to the PFs, a lot of players (when it comes to Extremes/Savage content, that is), make party finders explicitly stating what they want (e.g., “high DPS”, “aim to skip second Black Hole”, “speed runs”, “parse runs”, “fast and clean clears”, etc.). There are players out there, though, that join those parties with zero business being in there, and then choose to throw a fit because they couldn’t join a group advertising high-level play because they do not meet those requirements—heck, people do this when they join farm parties with a bonus and the party refuses to get them a clear; because that’s not the purpose of the party. The purpose is to farm the content, not help Jimmy get his clear. If Jimmy wants his clear, he needs to join the appropriate group.

In one of the parser threads, there was a poster who complained because there was supposedly an “orange DPS only” PF up for some piece of content (I’m guessing a Savage party), and that they couldn’t join; they claimed that these parties are the “norm” in PF, and are excluding other players. They then said they would report any subsequent parties with such a description. Yet, when people responded with “just make your own PF”/“avoid PFs like that” remarks, the poster completely ignored them and continued to complain.

My point with this example is, is that players that want certain play advertise that in PFs, and then others still complain about it.
> “Make your own PF if you want 95th percentile play!”
>“OMG! That PF says ‘orange DPS only’! That’s so not fair and excluding other players from joining it! I’m going to report them!”
See the problem here? Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

[RitsukoSonoda]

*snip*

A quote my father was always fond of saying "Never do anything half assed. If you're going to bother doing it, do it full assed."

Effort expectations should not differ by content. Especially if its done with DF not using a premade with friends each person should be performing to the best of their ability and by the time they hit expert roulette should atleast have the fundamentals of their job down and should always strive to be better than you were the day before. If you want to goof off or mess around that is what your pre-made with friends or FC members are for if you want to spam just 1 skill or do something silly like my first FC did and fight leviathan EX during ARR with 8 SCH.

Most people queue DF solo. This means you are grouping with 3, 7, or 23 random strangers depending on what you actually queued. It's like those group projects some of my teachers were fond of doing back when I was in school and the people intentionally screwing around and not putting out effort are the guy in your group that is given a task and doesn't do it resulting in either bringing the entire group down or making things harder for the other group members because they have to compensate for this person. Granted it was kind of funny when one of the teachers caught on to this and started grouping all the slackers together... >.>

And again with the casual / hardcore. This really should just be a term related to the time people actually spend playing the game when you consider a very large portion if not the majority of your "casual" players are logging more hours in game than your "hardcore" ones. About the only time this really changes is when there is a major content update.

[Ayer2015]

snip

I agree with the vast majority of what you've said. My only issue is when people start applying unreasonable expectations to lower end casual content. Which I've seen many posts regarding

A built in savage/ultimate only parser would be reasonable.

[akaneakki]

A quote my father was always fond of saying "Never do anything half assed. If you're going to bother doing it, do it full assed."

I always go by that, because that's a really great line to follow. You either do it or you don't pretty much.

I agree with the vast majority of what you've said. My only issue is when people start applying unreasonable expectations to lower end casual content. Which I've seen many posts regarding

A built in savage/ultimate only parser would be reasonable.

Nobody is expecting 1337 dps in expert roulettes, besides it's really hard to do low dps there as there is shitton of trash, clicking 1-2 aoe buttons isn't hard at all. You kinda have to try really hard not to click those buttons or not pay attention or even bother looking at the screen. You see the irony is many HATES doing expert, because it feels like a chore, yet they are willingly to put almost no effort and make the run even slower, which kinda confuses me in the first place. To make myself clear here, I don't care if anyone is doing --okay-- dps in experts, what should never happen is a healer to out damage an actually dps, same with tanks.

[Hruodig]

My only expectations from an expert roulette dps is that you use aoe on trash, and you out dps me on a boss. I'd argue that those are not incredibly high standards.

[HyoMinPark]

I agree with the vast majority of what you've said. My only issue is when people start applying unreasonable expectations to lower end casual content. Which I've seen many posts regarding

A built in savage/ultimate only parser would be reasonable.

I personally am really fond of the idea of a parser that one can toggle on/off in PFs groups for applicable content. Like, for example: a Savage weekly 2 chest clear group that advertises that a built in parser is going to be used during the content, and all players will have access to it. And the PF would have an accompanying icon displaying: Group Parser ON. Much like how you see "Lootmaster" or "Minimum Ilvl". That way, if people don't like it, they don't join the party. People that like to have the parsers readily available can join it. I'd imagine the parser would function similar to ACT, with presets to show DPS, HPS, Overheal %, Deaths, etc. to make it fair for PS4 players that cannot use ACT.

[Vstarstruck]

What I find amusing, not from just this thread but also from the many others about the topic, is you would be led to believe people are being kicked from parties all the time due to awful play, and that advice is frequently being given for others to improve. I rarely ever see this occur in game, not to mention the number of truly bad players is minimal.

You just admited you are unable to notice in further posts, so you cant say that, as pointed by:

I did expert as whm, was 400 below first dps and 200 higher than second. I was tank today, samurai did 800 lower than me. This is 2 out of 2 experts btw. So not it's not ''minimal''

as well. You not using a dps meter or not has nothing to do with the point being presented.

I guess people would be less aggravated about how others play if they didn't use dps meters to keep tabs on how others are performing.

You are not understanding, some people have issues with a run taking 30 min + when it can be done in 12-18. You do not need DPS meter to know if a run is going slow and as shown by the next post you are unable to notice it. Just because you can't notice it without a meter does not mean others can. There is cast bars, buff indicators, debuffs on the monsters, the speed it takes something to die. An experienced player can tell if the pace is slow on the first pull. Then while on the first pull or even the second pull can notice who is at fault by looking at what I said above.

Honestly? I don't really care. I log in and complete EX roulette once a day and raid once a week. I barely even pay attention to what others are doing in DF parties. I heal and dps.... I focus on what I do, then move on.

If you do not care and admit to not even noticing why are you here in the first place? it is not helping the discussion which is basically how to handle players that under perform by a huge margin. You are not helping the discussion and derailing it for some reason.

I agree with the vast majority of what you've said. My only issue is when people start applying unreasonable expectations to lower end casual content. Which I've seen many posts regarding

A built in savage/ultimate only parser would be reasonable.

You have no idea what people are taking about. They are not being nitpicky about not being on par with the top 1% of players. What we are talking about is the majority of the random DF runners, no matter the content in question do not know basic rotations, and that is something you admitted in your own posts you are unable to notice. So if you are unable to notice that, you are unable to notice what is being talked about here. Maybe it will help if you stop running off assumptions. Same thing pointed out in this post:

I always go by that, because that's a really great line to follow. You either do it or you don't pretty much.

Nobody is expecting 1337 dps in expert roulettes, besides it's really hard to do low dps there as there is shitton of trash, clicking 1-2 aoe buttons isn't hard at all. You kinda have to try really hard not to click those buttons or not pay attention or even bother looking at the screen. You see the irony is many HATES doing expert, because it feels like a chore, yet they are willingly to put almost no effort and make the run even slower, which kinda confuses me in the first place. To make myself clear here, I don't care if anyone is doing --okay-- dps in experts, what should never happen is a healer to out damage an actually dps, same with tanks.

How much we expect in high level content is not what this thread is about. The thread is about people not knowing the basics, tell you "You do not pay for my sub" when you try to tell them correct rotations, and of course the 80% idle healer meme.

[Jijifli]

How much we expect in high level content is not what this thread is about. The thread is about people not knowing the basics, tell you "You do not pay for my sub" when you try to tell them correct rotations, and of course the 80% idle healer meme.

^^^^^^

It stinks to give advice nicely and get told off for it.