Why Does It Feel Like Poor Play Is Acceptable (I'm Venting.)

[Ayer2015]

So you are saying it's completely fine for a healer to out dps a actual dps? I remember so many times people on this forum say, tank job is to keep aggro, use cds etc, while a healer's job is to heal. Yet I see many healers out perform actual dps in the expert roulette? What are they doing? on sightseing while clicking once in a while? I don't care if a dps is doing just fine in roulettes, but when some dps like a samurai gets beaten by a warrior, something is wrong and you are here telling me it's fine? You what? Explain to me what a dps job is then

Honestly? I don't really care. I log in and complete EX roulette once a day and raid once a week. I barely even pay attention to what others are doing in DF parties. I heal and dps.... I focus on what I do, then move on.

[Hruodig]

Honestly? I don't really care. I log in and complete EX roulette once a day and raid once a week. I barely even pay attention to what others are doing in DF parties. I heal and dps.... I focus on what I do, then move on.

If you don't care then why bother commenting? Obviously a lot of us do care and think it shouldn't be acceptable for a dps to get out-parsed by a tank or healer. It'd save you a lot of effort if you just ignored these threads.

[Ayer2015]

If you don't care then why bother commenting? Obviously a lot of us do care and think it shouldn't be acceptable for a dps to get out-parsed by a tank or healer. It'd save you a lot of effort if you just ignored these threads.

What's the point of having an echo chamber forum? If no one voices opinions which differ, people assume they are the majority or somehow innately right

[ovIm]

What's the point of having an echo chamber forum? If no one voices opinions which differ, people assume they are the majority or somehow innately right

its not that we want this here to be an echo chamber, its just that we dont really hear good opinions or reasons why our view of things is wrong. For example, I still haven't read anywhere why anyone finds it acceptable for DPS to do less damage per second than healers or tanks. I still haven't seen a good reason why a DPS' performance should not be as transparent as a tanks or healers. And as long as we dont hear solid, good arguments, we will continue to be vocal to what we still think is true, our views are not challenged.

[RichardButte]

its not that we want this here to be an echo chamber, its just that we dont really hear good opinions or reasons why our view of things is wrong. For example, I still haven't read anywhere why anyone finds it acceptable for DPS to do less damage per second than healers or tanks. I still haven't seen a good reason why a DPS' performance should not be as transparent as a tanks or healers. And as long as we dont hear solid, good arguments, we will continue to be vocal to what we still is true, our views are not challenged.

This.

I'm a DPS player and I should be held to the same standards of play that tanks and healers are held to because that's FAIR.

I don't understand why anyone feels it's okay for tanks and healers to be judged but DPS players are these fragile little butterflies and they can't risk allowing us to know that WE and we alone are the reason our raid isn't making the DPS check...

[Hruodig]

What's the point of having an echo chamber forum? If no one voices opinions which differ, people assume they are the majority or somehow innately right

No one's asking for an echo chamber, we're asking for an actual good-faith discussion on this topic. I've seen you go into several threads related to parsing and dps-accountability saying that you don't see why the threads should exist, or that you think every argument has already been made so there's no point to discussing it. It's clear to me that you just don't want these topics to be discussed, so why not ignore them?

[Jijifli]

What's the point of having an echo chamber forum? If no one voices opinions which differ, people assume they are the majority or somehow innately right

I don't need it to be an echo chamber. I want discussion, but I want both sides to bring good points. The only thing I'm generally hearing is anti-parsing, or how I'm overeating over simplest things. Which both are false, when I mention I'm not using a parser and I don't need one to see the same spell animation repeat.

I really, truthfully, honestly here, do not care if it's even sub-par. My expectations have died this low, and my playtime on my main here is showing it. I stopped doing expert until 4.2, even though I could gear the BLM I love so much. If I lowered my expectations much more, I'd stop playing in general. What's the norm for high up? 4k? 5k? I don't care if you're doing 2k in my expert. It's bound to be more than pressing 1 button until you fall asleep.

[HyoMinPark]

What's the point of having an echo chamber forum? If no one voices opinions which differ, people assume they are the majority or somehow innately right

I happily welcome opposing viewpoints and opinions when I’m having discussions with people. But simply saying something like “I don’t care” is not offering anything to the discussion other than just stating your views on the matter, in my opinion.

A lot of discussions about topics like parsers or DPS debates (regarding all three roles) tend to have opposing opinions boil down to “Well, I don’t like [discussion’s topic], therefore it shouldn’t be in the game/I shouldn’t have to do it” or “I don’t care about [discussion’s topic], therefore why should anyone else care”. Very rarely do I see solid arguments debating the opposite side when it comes to parsing or to DPS debates (healer DPS, tank DPS, DPS AOEing, etc.).

[Ayer2015]

snip

Well, the difference in opinion regarding parsers, or player performance, really comes down to what content its in reference to. Its clear many people on the forums have certain expectations regarding player performance, usually boiling down to completing the content in a certain time frame. The counter argument to that, relating to DF roulettes at least, is casual "non-optimal' players deserve content as well. A lot of the friction comes from people expecting Savage skill level play in normal dungeon content. Many will say, just try, but that line isn't fooling anyone since trying is relative.
Its reasonable to say that if people expect a certain style of play, they should make their own groups rather than expect random people through a DF tool to bend to their every whim. With that said, I think its fair to have higher expectations relating to EX primal and savage raiding, since those types of content are designed for a different player base.

[HyoMinPark]

Well, the difference in opinion regarding parsers, or player performance, really comes down to what content its in reference to.

Fair enough. A lot of pro-parsers specifically refer to Extremes, Savage, and Ultimate. A certain level of performance is expected in those types of content, and hence why people that are pro-parser talk about parsers with regards to said content. Because you can clear a dungeon with minimal effort, but Extremes/Savage/Ultimate are an entirely different beast.

There are people out there that parse dungeons and 24-mans, but there is really no need to use them as some measurement of player performance when it comes to high-end content because the two are completely different. Which is why I always say, when people bring up the bad apples that harass in dungeons over parse numbers, that most serious raiders who parse would just laugh at them, because who cares about numbers in dungeons? Raiders barely care about Extreme primal numbers—most only care and look at numbers for relevant Savage content.

I sincerely doubt the pro-parser posters here want parsers just so they can judge when it comes to dungeons; a lot of them want them in content where they actually matter so as to watch performance, and to also hold people accountable if need be. Example: a DPS is complaining about low DPS and trash talking other players, but they are being outDPS’d by the tanks; people would like to be able to say to a person like that “Uh, hey, maybe you should quiet down a little bit because you’re doing less than the WAR...”.

Its clear many people on the forums have certain expectations regarding player performance, usually boiling down to completing the content in a certain time frame.

Farm groups for Extremes and Savage floors typically like fast; I don’t think that’s exclusive to just forum posters, since a lot of players I meet in-game who probably do not even look at these discussions say they would rather have faster and cleaner runs as opposed to the slower ones. Even before I started posting on here, I preferred faster and cleaner runs when I was pony farming (back in the day) as opposed to runs where we would wipe 5 times before getting a clear in (and, of course, no pony).

For dungeons, I think a lot of players would like to spend less than 30 minutes in most, because they are well-worn content for a lot of the more veteran players; my personal experience is that people tend to be more understanding when there are new players in the dungeons, but I know that’s not always the case. Expert, people like 15~20 minute runs because they are massively easier than leveling dungeons, and take even less effort. Plus, with Expert Roulette having such a small variety to it, people get sick of the content relatively quickly, and feel like it’s more of a daily chore. Myself, I avoid most roulettes and just cap via other means because the content just isn’t that interesting to me anymore after 2+ years of them being relatively the same.

The counter argument to that, relating to DF roulettes at least, is casual "non-optimal' players deserve content as well. A lot of the friction comes from people expecting Savage skill level play in normal dungeon content. Many will say, just try, but that line isn't fooling anyone since trying is relative.

I have to disagree with the bolded statement. I’ve never seen anyone argue that players should play to a Savage-level or 95th percentile level when it comes to dungeons. Asking DPS to AOE when needed is not the same as asking for Savage-level play. Asking a healer to not stand around idle for 80% of the dungeon is not the same as asking for 95th percentile play.

Its reasonable to say that if people expect a certain style of play, they should make their own groups rather than expect random people through a DF tool to bend to their every whim. With that said, I think its fair to have higher expectations relating to EX primal and savage raiding, since those types of content are designed for a different player base.

The same can be said for both sides though. If a player wants to be an Ice Mage, why should they expect 3/7/23 other randoms to be okay with that playstyle? Why can’t they make a PF looking for players that will let them be an Ice Mage? I think in DF, people just want players to put in effort and try. I don’t think they expect them to play to a Savage level, or even to a purple or blue level. They expect the basics (tanks to tank, hold aggro, use cooldowns; healers to heal when appropriate, DPS when they can, and not stand around idle; and DPS to DPS—this means using AOEings in packs of 3+ mobs and not single target if they are in content where they have access to AOE skills).

With regards to the PFs, a lot of players (when it comes to Extremes/Savage content, that is), make party finders explicitly stating what they want (e.g., “high DPS”, “aim to skip second Black Hole”, “speed runs”, “parse runs”, “fast and clean clears”, etc.). There are players out there, though, that join those parties with zero business being in there, and then choose to throw a fit because they couldn’t join a group advertising high-level play because they do not meet those requirements—heck, people do this when they join farm parties with a bonus and the party refuses to get them a clear; because that’s not the purpose of the party. The purpose is to farm the content, not help Jimmy get his clear. If Jimmy wants his clear, he needs to join the appropriate group.

In one of the parser threads, there was a poster who complained because there was supposedly an “orange DPS only” PF up for some piece of content (I’m guessing a Savage party), and that they couldn’t join; they claimed that these parties are the “norm” in PF, and are excluding other players. They then said they would report any subsequent parties with such a description. Yet, when people responded with “just make your own PF”/“avoid PFs like that” remarks, the poster completely ignored them and continued to complain.

My point with this example is, is that players that want certain play advertise that in PFs, and then others still complain about it.
> “Make your own PF if you want 95th percentile play!”
>“OMG! That PF says ‘orange DPS only’! That’s so not fair and excluding other players from joining it! I’m going to report them!”
See the problem here? Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.