Why Does It Feel Like Poor Play Is Acceptable (I'm Venting.)

[winsock]

Me personally? I never ever ever risk a df tank, ever.

^ I agree with your actions here and actually made a similar argument in the thread pages ago.

I'd offer advice at first, then leave if it isn't taken.

Again, I agree.

What makes it ok for them to waste my time?

It's not acceptable, but I think we both agree it's tolerable. You mentioned that hypothetically if you got a bad tank in a pug, you would offer advice, then leave if they refused. You are willing to tolerate performance below the minimum, so long as they are willing to take advice.

[Miste]

You say "to be fair", but what is fair about accusing someone of laziness with no evidence of laziness? You accuse of foul play based purely on evidence in your imagination.

If you assume they do not know any better, provide instructions such as using flash, etc, and they refuse to follow, you can kick them for their unwillingness to work with the party, regardless of their skill/knowledge/motivation. In other words, your kick is backed by evidence.

Do I do that? That's a pretty big assumption right there. I don't believe you've seen me in-game to know how I interact with others.

Should I explain this point by point?

1. You said you cannot tell if someone is being lazy.

2. I said yes you can due to certain factors and explained a PLD65 who had DRK70 and multiple other jobs at 70 not knowing how to use Flash. I also clarified I tried to help this PLD and they ignored me. That is all the evidence I need to see they are lazy.

3. Then you said level cannot determine dungeon experience, which is true? I never said it does, so I am assuming you don't understand or didn't read at this point.

4. Since you learn Flash at level 6, the player should be looking at and reading their tooltips when they learn abilities, if they don't understand what it means they have the responsibility to find help. When I offered advice to that PLD65 just to use Flash a couple of times in order to hold hate and they ignored me and never used it still.

What excuse is there for a PLD65 to not know what Flash, a level 6 skill, does or how to use it? <----maybe answer my question this time? What excuse is there? You don't need to do dungeons to read your job's tooltips, or use the novice hall, or ask fellow players for help, or lookup guides on your job, or get information on how your job abilities work from any source. So dungeon experience has nothing to do with it.

So you keep saying you need to try to help them, but I mentioned I did. They ignored me. Your assumption that they "don't know any better" is basically saying they lack common sense or lack intelligence to help themselves. Personally I'd prefer someone assumed I was lazy instead of assuming I was simply unintelligent. Maybe that is just my personal preference though, but lazy is way less insulting.

You do realize you keep accusing me of things right? You accused me of going on a witch hunt, yet I only posted one example? I mean...you're accusing me of going around claiming everyone is lazy because I say so.. Where is your evidence that I am doing that? Please show me....or is it only in your imagination?

I am not saying every situation is people being lazy, but it is easy to tell laziness when you get ignored when trying to help, or told to be quiet (albeit not that nicely), or the infamous "it's my sub I play how I want", those are all indicators they are just being lazy and don't want to learn.

I mean you do realize your statements are hypocritical right? Because you make assumptions that the player "doesn't know any better" which means you assume they lack common sense or intelligence. Why are you acting like my one example where I had multiple kinds of evidence to form my opinion is so wrong? What's fair about accusing people of being unintelligent or "not knowing any better"?

I mean if you can explain to me why that PLD65 with DRK70 and multiple other 70 jobs is not lazy I'll listen?

Keep in mind this was a 50+ dungeon, multiple tanks 65+, multiple jobs 70
I offered help by instructing them to use Flash so they wouldn't lose hate on 2/3 of the mobs
They knew fluent English since they made idle chit chat with one of the DPS so it was not a communication barrier, but they ignored me and stayed silent when I spoke to them and still never used Flash.

So they never attempted to take the advice or ask any questions back to me about it they just let me, the healer, keep having to struggle to heal everyone while tanking 2/3 of the mobs in the pull.

Explain to me how that PLD65 isn't lazy then if you feel I am just witch hunting (accusing someone of witch hunting just because of one example used in a forum to make a point is a new thing to me I thought witch hunt means you basically attack anyone and everyone, but hey its your accusation, not mine)

[Hruodig]

It's not acceptable, but I think we both agree it's tolerable. You mentioned that hypothetically if you got a bad tank in a pug, you would offer advice, then leave if they refused. You are willing to tolerate performance below the minimum, so long as they are willing to take advice.

At times, we have to tolerate a lot of things in life that we shouldn't have to. It doesn't make it ok, and it sure doesn't mean that we should be playing semantics in order to defend it.

[Jijifli]

I mean you do realize your statements are hypocritical right? Because you make assumptions that the player "doesn't know any better" which means you assume they lack common sense or intelligence. Why are you acting like my one example where I had multiple kinds of evidence to form my opinion is so wrong? What's fair about accusing people of being unintelligent or "not knowing any better"?

This is why I was disagreeing with Winsock. We are trying to help. We don't just isntantly say the person's lazy. And as I mentioned in another post, I've gotten to a point where, if I'm giving advice, I have to assume the person is 5 years old and probably doesn't know any words that have more than five characters.

[Miste]

This is why I was disagreeing with Winsock. We are trying to help. We don't just isntantly say the person's lazy.

I honestly believe he didn't actually read my post before claiming I was witch hunting, you know, to know I attempted to help the PLD65 before determining that they were indeed just being lazy. There were multiple kinds of "evidence" I was using to form my opinion on that particular situation, yet he keeps claiming I wasn't using any evidence and keeps saying we need to try to help people first, but I already said I tried to help that tank...so yeah pretty sure he just didn't read it.

[Vstarstruck]

It's not that the role scares me, I just suck at it lol. I don't want to put other people through my bad play. So I just avoid playing tank in this game in general. Tanking has never clicked with me. Usually I play DPS in all mmosI play. However, I discovered I sucked playing DPS in this game which I figured that out without a parser fyi, SSS revealed that I cant do dps rotations very well. Even after posting a vid and trying out all the advice I was given, I just did not improve at all so I'm like welp, not playing DPS anymore (and I was playing RDM no less, a class apparently that is so easy no one should be having issues with so I felt rather stupid and discouraged). Now imagine how bad I would be as a tank where I know I suck so badly that I would rather I get kicked. lmao yeah it would be horrible and no way am I gonna put other people through that. I'm too considerate for that.

WHM for me is the best job in the world, I feel relaxed, its comfy af and all I have to do is heal and then throw rocks at things when no one needs healed. And if no one dies during the run or the tank is not taking damage because of damage mitigation tools that I like to use (Divine Benison and holy are nice for this :3 ) then I know I'm succeeding :3

I wonder....

When you press buttons, are you pressing them before the CD is ready? or reacting to it after it is ready? With human reaction delay and the input delay of this game, you REALLY, REALLY need to hit them before they light up. You need to have all your abilities to be consistently dark.

Guessing this rdm is a different character... ummm

So lets say you start off with jolt, then you cast thunder or stone, once you are in CD, thats when you hit your OCDs like Fleche and Contre Sixte. Some people can only use 1 OGCD some can use 2, it depends on your ping, then you use jolt/ fire/aero (depending on proc) then use another OGCD. By the time you have 40-50 mana of each color, ALL of your OGCDs should be black and on recast, then when you use Manafication, that resets Corps-a-corps etc then start your melee combo.

For SSS dummies gear is a big factor too, I think you need 310 with good melds to do the first savage/ extreme ones.

Tanking is the same way. For example, someone talking to me took their 70 PLD to help a friend queue for trials. On ramuh, She charged in without an oath smashing all her CDs and OGCDs (the tanks where 2 PLD) My friend had no oath on for about 3 CDs and 2 OGCD, she had rank A enmity over the shield oath pld when she put sword oath on. (Both where ilevel sync) The shield oath PLD even tried to provoke off the sword oath one, and she kept taking enmity back from simply keeping all her CDs and OGCDs on cool down. You have to know what to use next, and do the rotations before you execute them. Eventually the shield oath PLD gave up leaving my friend to tank in sword oath.

But ya holding aoe hate is as simply as hitting flash flash flash and have the monsters face away from the group, very simple. The only time things get messy has to do with yet again with the game delay. Just because they look like they are in range on your screen, does not mean that is how the server is reading their positions. So it is very easy to miss monsters with flash/overpower/unleash (depending what tank you are referring to). Just be aware of countering that (be willing run back and make sure you have everything, most people do not bother do this, and the prime reason you see bad things with randoms a lot) and you be fine.

[SavageCipher]

The apologists/enablers of said bad players, is the real problem. We all pay money to play this game..properly. I don't spend money to repeatedly get tossed in with bad players who leave on wipe, and or don't heal correctly. Everything is goal oriented, if I want to have mindless fun, I'll fish or craft. There's outlets for that in the game. But when I'm in a dungeon, I want two things, items, and cohesive play.

[Ayer2015]

What I find amusing, not from just this thread but also from the many others about the topic, is you would be led to believe people are being kicked from parties all the time due to awful play, and that advice is frequently being given for others to improve. I rarely ever see this occur in game, not to mention the number of truly bad players is minimal.

[akaneakki]

not to mention the number of truly bad players is minimal.

I did expert as whm, was 400 below first dps and 200 higher than second. I was tank today, samurai did 800 lower than me. This is 2 out of 2 experts btw. So not it's not ''minimal''

[Ayer2015]

I did expert as whm, was 400 below first dps and 200 higher than second. I was tank today, samurai did 800 lower than me. This is 2 out of 2 experts btw. So not it's not ''minimal''

I don't use a dps meter and main a healer