This is why this game should'nt get a parse

[Kakiko]

How so, though? Why hide your logs if you have nothing to hide?

It was more in response to this:

Good farm groups will look someone up on FFLogs as they join parties to see what kind of player they're getting; if they see only grey logs (or no logs at all) they know they got someone hoping for a carry, which isn't something these groups want (and if its someone who hasn't cleared...well, they're really hoping for a carry in a farm party and deserve the kick and blacklist they're getting).

Than the first, although in regards to the first:

Not everyone who wants to set their logs to private does so because they have something to hide. I absolutely detest that excuse for any sort of discussion like this ("oh well, if you've nothing to hide then you don't have to worry"). As I mentioned in my earlier post, situations can arise where someone runs to the forums or to Reddit to remark about how this player or that player, even without saying names, was doing crap damage. Look at how this very thread started as proof. But, you only get one side of the story. Maybe that player people complain about thought they were doing the best they could? There's a lot of room for "what ifs" and assumptions when logs are made public and someone isn't performing as well as you think they should. That's what I don't care for. I know there have been times when my own numbers dipped because I was experiencing lag, and lately I think my keyboard needs to be replaced as my tab-target isn't working properly sometimes. So, if someone were to run off to to the forums or Reddit to make a thread about how the DPS in that instance was crap and they had to carry the little DPS, even if they didn't say my name - it's still there in the log with no explanation of why my numbers were terrible or why maybe my rotation was shoddy. It's not that I have something to HIDE, it's just that you're only ever going to get one side of the story.

My comment though was more in regards to the second part. Up until a few days ago, I didn't have FFlogs and as of right now, anything I upload isn't showing as there being any fight there anyway (because I can't figure out how to make it work properly, despite watching videos and reading different sites). So for all intents and purposes, it looks like I have nothing. So, if I join something even if it's something I am fairly confident in, by the quoted segment's logic, the group is going to "know" they got someone who wants a carry just because they can't see any of my logs. What about people who didn't know about FFLogs (like.. me.. up until like a week ago)? Or people who can't figure out how to make them work? There are also people out there who don't care about logs at all, and so haven't ever downloaded anything or looked into it because to them it's not a priority and they don't want to spend their time on it. Not everyone who doesn't have them are looking for a carry. Not everyone going into a farm group without a prior clear is looking for a carry (although it's kind of dumb to go into a farm if you're not at least somewhat aware of the mechanics). Or, again, they see my name in logs where I was having an off day, or any other issue, and decide I "deserve" a blacklist (according to the quoted post's logic).

The use of definites is what makes it a wide brush. Yes, maybe some people without logs hope for a carry. Maybe some people without a clear are hoping for a carry. But that doesn't include everyone and it just rubbed me the wrong way.

[PArcher]

SNIP

Problem is, its an absolutely tiny minority that can clear current content fine but has nothing on FFLogs. I wait a few hours after running anything now because its almost a guarantee that someone else is uploading the runs

I've PFed farm parties a lot (though not as much recently because the quality of players right now is abysmal. Most good players are on break til 4.2 or have everything they want) and yeah, people with no logs are almost always dragging the party down. Its better to just boot them and get someone who has proof they can farm than take the chance and spend time wiping (or worse, going in and seeing the newbie bonus pop up).

[Kakiko]

*snip*

Then, I'm in the minority. I get that you want parties that can clear and where everyone pulls their weight. I just take issue with the generalization that because someone doesn't have FFLogs means that person is looking for a carry. It's not true 100% of the time. I don't know, I guess it's just different expectations from the game. To me, it sounds extremely elitist that someone has to have a third party item as "proof" or they "deserve" a blacklist.

[PArcher]

Then, I'm in the minority. I get that you want parties that can clear and where everyone pulls their weight. I just take issue with the generalization that because someone doesn't have FFLogs means that person is looking for a carry. It's not true 100% of the time. I don't know, I guess it's just different expectations from the game. To me, it sounds extremely elitist that someone has to have a third party item as "proof" or they "deserve" a blacklist.

There is nothing elitist for expecting people joining a farm party to be able to pull their weight. Being able to check that someone can perform at a basic competency saves time and makes things more efficient.

EDIT: And yes, if you join a farm looking to be carried, you do deserve the kick and blacklist (especially if you haven't cleared yet). Its disrespectful to those who have put in the time and effort to get things on farm and they can definitely take steps to avoid having to deal with a player like that.

[Kakiko]

There is nothing elitist for expecting people joining a farm party to be able to pull their weight. Being able to check that someone can perform at a basic competency saves time and makes things more efficient.

I don't disagree that having people in a farm party who can pull their weight and competently complete the content isn't elitist. That wasn't even what I was calling elitist in my post you quoted. However, my counter to you would then be: why not join a static, or an fc, or a group of friends and farm, rather than rely on PF which can bring you people you find less desirable and not up to your standards (standards which are subjective to every player).

[Jijifli]

I don't disagree that having people in a farm party who can pull their weight and competently complete the content isn't elitist. That wasn't even what I was calling elitist in my post you quoted. However, my counter to you would then be: why not join a static, or an fc, or a group of friends and farm, rather than rely on PF which can bring you people you find less desirable and not up to your standards (standards which are subjective to every player).

Because there aren't 7 people in my FC that are on who want to go farm it.

Because I don't have 7 friends on that want to go out and farm it.

Maybe the static isn't on for the farm because it's not schedule'd.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Then, I'm in the minority. I get that you want parties that can clear and where everyone pulls their weight. I just take issue with the generalization that because someone doesn't have FFLogs means that person is looking for a carry. It's not true 100% of the time. I don't know, I guess it's just different expectations from the game. To me, it sounds extremely elitist that someone has to have a third party item as "proof" or they "deserve" a blacklist.

I'll bluntly state, I typically check everyone's logs who join a farm party I've involved with for no other reason than to gauge my expectations. The less experience, the less likely I'll stay beyond a handful of attempts because I just don't believe enough players have the skill to clear. When I plan to farm something like Shinryu EX, I'm looking for fast and efficient runs, not multiple wipes to silly mistakes. Why? Because unless I get lucky, I'll be doing this for a minimum of 99 times. Now exceptions can be made. If the group has a good atmosphere and makes the attempts humorous, I may stick around longer even if it's less productive. I don't simply look at FFlogs, see a bunch of green and grey and immediately think you're trash. I just like knowing what I'm getting into, especially if I'm on tank or healer. A weaker co-tank means I may have to adjust my playstyle. Likewise, on healer, I am very aggressive and like having a general idea of what my co-healer can handle. If they have grey parses, I'm going to be far more DPS oriented to make up for their lack of damage. On the other hand, if their HPS is equally low, or they tend to DPS only, I know to put myself in the "healer" role.

Basically, FFlogs gives me a buffer instead of adjusting while completely blind. If you hide your logs, sorry, but I will assume you have something to hide. That may not be the case, however many people I've come across do so to hide poor performance.

it's still there in the log with no explanation of why my numbers were terrible or why maybe my rotation was shoddy.

Like Hoodrat mentioned, FFlogs provides that context if you know how to use it properly. I can deduce exactly how you died, what killed you and why. Right up to if it was someone else's mistake that snowballed.

[Inuk9]

Problem is, its an absolutely tiny minority that can clear current content fine but has nothing on FFLogs.) (..)

(..)and yeah, people with no logs are almost always dragging the party down. .

I mean, you can be right but that creates a community gate, I will use me as example. my character name is Cacho'rro Dos'ventos from Behemoth, my main is Warrior you can see my logs to verify my history.

At first I had almost no logs/grey logs and good thing I had friends to play with. Imagine if I had to PF content to learn how to farm those fights? (Note: Learn how to properly optimize your job, the boss rotations and stuff, not learning the fight).

So, I've learned O1s and O2s good enough to get purple logs because of those friend guild runs. What would happen if I never had the chance to do that?

Still working to get purples on O3s and O4s tho.

[KaldeaSahaline]

However, I have seen it before. The addition of an official parser would not suddenly change the nice community we still have overall to an absolute toxic nightmare, but it would change over time. First we would begin to see people complaining in these very same forums because they were dismissed from a party for no apparent reason. Then we would see posts debating if low dps is a valid reason to dismiss someone in duty finder.

These already exist. We're quite literally posting in one of them right now.

You also do not have any real data that says it would become more toxic (if you do, please cite it, not anecdotes real quantifiable data). It could just as easily become less toxic, because players want to not be excluded thus they attempt to get better. Neither of us have any ACTUAL data to back up our claims, so let's not speculate shall we?

Then we would begin to see people ignoring mechanics only to get higher dps. Then we would begin to see people ninja-pulling bosses before the countdown is over only to mess everybody else's opener and get a lead in the dps meters.

This is a common myth that is perpetuated by unskilled players. Look at the best players, ignoring mechanics is not how they achieve top DPS. They do it by managing uptime in intelligent ways but always respecting mechanics. Ignoring mechanics gets you damage down stacks, one shot, or wipes the party thus killing any hopes of doing DPS.

Also, if you had done any log review/parsing yourself you'd know that that getting the jump on a countdown actually reduces your DPS. Good openers are good because they take into account ENTIRE party openers and buff timings, and disrupting that hurts you, not helps you.

Easily. If SE makes parsers official then they are no longer against TOS and grounds to ban someone. It removes a very powerful deterrent to people bringing out parsers to harass others. It makes my game worse by having to put up with those people.

This is inaccurate and a common mistakenly made point. Just because a parser is official doesn't mean that they're CONDONING harassment. These two events are mutually exclusive. Harassment would still be punished just as it is now.

Defining harassment would be the challenge, not policing/punishing it.

Which of the below are harassment in your opinion?:

"Alien Gamer your numbers are low."
"We need more DPS, 2 people are doing sub 2k."
"Stop being AFK please, we need your help to clear."
"Please try to DPS healer, there's no outgoing damage."
"**** you, you ******* ****. Abort yourself."

At first I had almost no logs/grey logs and good thing I had friends to play with. Imagine if I had to PF content to learn how to farm those fights? (Note: Learn how to properly optimize your job, the boss rotations and stuff, not learning the fight).

So, I've learned O1s and O2s good enough to get purple logs because of those friend guild runs. What would happen if I never had the chance to do that?

Still working to get purples on O3s and O4s tho.

Not every group actually checks logs. I mean I know mine doesn't when we pug someone. Be able to talk, listen and be versatile and your percentile doesn't matter. As soon as you compromise on those human qualities, people expect better performance.

Don't be afraid to put your reputation on the line. I pugged my first O3S kill after about 10 hours over the course of 2 weeks of learning. I had never seen enrage, but had seen like 25%, but knew the fight was just the same at that point.

I said to the PF leader, hey, I know the fight front to back, can MT or OT, I haven't cleared yet, but I put up good numbers and if I make a single mistake, I'll remove myself and you can blacklist me for wasting peoples time.

They invited me and we one shot it.

If you're not comfortable enough to put it all out there, you could use more practice on the fight then. Sidenote - I'm on behemoth as well, if you need a co-tank to help with anything let me know just shoot me a friend request.

[Lazaruz]

Yes, maybe some people without logs hope for a carry. Maybe some people without a clear are hoping for a carry. But that doesn't include everyone and it just rubbed me the wrong way.

You know.... I couldnt agree more with this.

Much like how not everyone who parses is a toxic kid who will rage at you over your numbers, not everyone who hides their logs are doing it just because there's something to hide or because they "want a carry"

I've seen the argument pop up plenty where people want to be able to judge their own performance, and their performance alone via parsing software and guess what, I'm not denying anyone that ability by hiding my logs. What I am doing is denying them the ability to make a erroneous assumption about my ability to play, just because of one bad log that got uploaded without my concent, or a good one that didnt get uploaded.

Regardless, I have no interest in the endgame level content, where most people agree that a parse is necessary. So if anyone resent me because you dont have "proof" that I'm playing at the level you want, go ahead. I'll let my actions do the talking instead of just raw data without context.

*Drops mic, leaves thread, since I already got bopped once for stepping on someone's nerve*