Healing in 4man parties (The experience 60-70)

[Claire_Pendragon]

Had to make an edit to my original post, because people took one sentence too literal, and all encompassing, rather than within context of what was said prior and what is said after.

But to

I have to disagree with this. A lot of the baby dungeons from ARR and even some from HW were way more challenging than some of the SB dungeons when you’re running them at a relevant level or back in the day before the were nerfed with the new expansion/blatant overgearing. And Aurum Vale is certainly still the hardest of any leveling dungeon. Why do you think people always leave the minute they see it?

I was referring to being Lv60 now, where the demand isnt there, but I still don't agree to the difficulty being the same. They are just drastically different.

Doing the bees in Qarn wasnt a healer check.
Clicking on the fruit properly, or dodging instant kills in Aurum Vale wasnt a healer check.
Only the 1st boss in Arum Vale was a Healer check, and even then, didnt require as much effort as most leveling SB dungeons. (healing alone.)
And there is one point in Arum vale where pats can be an issue for a healer, IF the tank doesnt get hate on them before they interrupt the healers casts, and there's some bad luck involved for that combo.

I should clarify I do more so mean trash mobs, not bosses. (IMO all bosses are easy compared to "most" SB leveling trash mobs, and SB bosses are easier than 2.x/3.x bosses.)

HW bosses we mostly equal to 2.0 bosses, before 2.1+ nerfs.
Even the vault was easier than Arum Vale 2.0 bosses. (before nerfs)

The Vault trash mobs hit like wet noodles, and you can spend ur time DPSing as a healer.
The last boss has less room for DPSing, but doesnt mean its hard to heal. It's only hard to carry people.
If people are messing up in SB dungeons/trash mobs as much as they mess up in vault, then SB dungeons are EVEN HARDER.

But I guess the difference is an argument of skill vs numbers.

mobs just dont hit hard in HW by the numbers. But you still need soem skill to avoid taking unessisary extra damage.
SB dungeons base unavoidable damage is extremely high, before you calculate skill requirements to dodge. (Which is very low.)

So if it takes less skill, but still does equal damage, I can agree theres room to argue which is more difficult, but having the option to lower dmg from skill, to me is always easier, than not having the option to lower it with skill.

EDIT: unrelated, but something that I remembered near the end of leveling WHM, I would always have to use swift cast holy, in order to get it off in time, before the tank died, due to most tanks going from full hp to dead in 1 GCD/cast. But tanks still died immediately, as I started up a cure2 to them right after holy GCD ends. I then realized that there's quite a few enemies which are immune to stuns in the SB dungeons, but I dont remember which ones, and how many of them. Just that it happened enough to need oGCDs to use Holy. Was also an issue I had to work around depending on the pull.

[Sebazy]

I then realized that there's quite a few enemies which are immune to stuns in the SB dungeons

Bosses aside of course, I'm struggling to think of any regular trash that was stun immune? The only examples I can think of were 'barriers' or specific gate mobs in late ARR/HW TBH =(

[Avatre]

Bosses aside of course, I'm struggling to think of any regular trash that was stun immune? The only examples I can think of were 'barriers' or specific gate mobs in late ARR/HW TBH =(

Only one comes to mind. The first colossus in Doma Castle. You can't stun him. But he is also locked behind the first door, and total of 7-9 enemies would be pulled from that door opening to the first boss.

[MoroMurasaki]

At some point I start to wonder if the common denominator in all of these healing horror stories is the healer telling the story.

There are so many variables within the DF pool that it's essentially a static randomness. I don't believe that any one person queueing for the same roulettes on the same role is going to wind up with a shockingly unique experience that they aren't responsible for.

If you consistently wipe on big pulls perhaps you need to focus more on yourself and less on your tank. If you consistantly have dungeons taking 20+ minutes with big pulls that others regularly clear 5 or more minutes faster maybe you need to focus on your personal DPS.

Everyone has good and bad days. I'm sure every bleeding edge progression healer could tell a story of getting dps happy in a leveling dungeon and letting a tank die which resulted in a wipe. Those single instances are not anything resembling the majority of DF content for most of us though.

I wish I had something more constructive to add to this discussion but I'm not sure what that is at this point. What I do know is that every person defending the OP's perspective needs to know there are tons of healers out there who don't experience this hellish DF existance and if you consistantly have trouble with things you should probably parse some things and get an idea of where you stand or at least watch some youtube videos of more experienced healers to see if you're missing something.

Tl;dr: Maybe it's you. We all get bad tanks sometimes. Stop whining like it's all the time. If it is all the time then look in the mirror.

[Squintina]

All of this can be applied for any player really.

I main a healer (SCH) and lately I've mostly been going with my husband who's a tank, so we don't have these issues. However there are plenty of times when I do go by myself into dungeons (or he'll go as a dps) and yeah sometimes I get tanks where I'm just like "well I guess I'll be REALLY stretching my healing muscles". I don't mind not DPSing in those because the constant healing, especially with that diverse level 60-70 skill set, and careful MP planning keeps me entertained, but I certainly would like it to be less stressful.
Heck recently I had a group so bad in a poison guildhest that it became nearly as difficult as high-level trial -.-. It happens.

But most of the time the tank is usually good or at least ok, same with the DPS.

But likewise there are times tanks will deal with healers who don't use their healing cooldowns or who just stand there when healing isn't needed, and other times they'll pair up with good healers. Or the tank is undergeared/new and a geared DPS in a non-ilevel sync'd dungeon just out-aggros and never pays attention to aggro meters, that's frustrating to them too.

The same can be said about the good DPS, they're probably frustrated too when they get a bad tank or healer (or both) because they can see the stress it puts on the group, and they have to be more mindful of not adding to said stress (like by lowering their dps or having to do certain boss mechanics that normally go to a tank/healer), and then other times they get really good groups.

So everyone can end up frustrated if other players aren't being helpful or considerate of the group's level.

This is really just...the life of being with random people who all play at unknown levels.

This is why I tend to prefer me & the hubby heal & tanking, because at least we know our comfort levels.

[Claire_Pendragon]

At some point I start to wonder if the common denominator in all of these healing horror stories is the healer telling the story.

The problem with this argument, which is brought up all the time, is that when you argue what can be done, no one has the answer.

For example;

If Largesse is now popped, and Regen is then applied, then healing from the enchanced Regen and Cure2 spam should be enough to keep a tank up.
Popping more oGCDs, to weave oGCD heals, will only leave u with nothing once Largesse wears off, or is on CD for the next fight.

So if a Largesse'd Regen is on a tank, who is at full HP, and you begin casting Cure2, the tank dies before cure2 finishes its cast.
I'm sorry, the more logical argument is "What is the tank doing wrong?"
I start watching CDs, if he/she is at least using 1 CD, I then check their gear.

If their CD usage is reasonable, and their gear is up to date, then I look to see if there is an enemy who is stronger than normal.
(An example is the colossus at the start of doma castle, who is roughly as strong as 2.5 enemies in himself, and has his annoying cleave to deal with, which can put you into many moments of not casting cures.)

The next issue is when spaming heals is only slowing down the depletion of the tanks HP, but not actually bringing them back up.
You literally cant do anything else, other than pop oGCDs inbetween heals, and make sure regen was up prior. (You cant pop it during battle, or the 2GCDs of no heals will kill the tank)

It's easy to say "Well, the result must be pure magic" when in reality, the numbers are against the arguments.
But hey, I can only argue for myself, maybe other healers who have had similar experiences really are that bad.

Granted this isn't every group, but it is at the very least 1 in 4 groups. Though it seemed to be more often than not, nearly 50% of groups for Bardums Run/Kagane Castle. (Also doesnt help DRK doesnt really have enough sustained mitigation, and is one of the more common tanks to get.)
Even the worst geared PLDs were pretty easy to keep alive.
And Ive had an occasional DRK who was well geared, and was almost using at least 1 CD, who required just about every oGCD to be used the moment it was up, to keep him up.

But the moment you get the poor/under geared WAR/DRK player, and maybe a brain dead PLD, then you start to see wipes.
(I've had SAMs who've tanked and seemed easier to heal, but maybe because having just 1 less enemy attacking, because they are dead, ro attacking me/the other DPS, made a world of difference in sheer amount of HP needing to be healed per GCD.)

Also, for clarification, when I run dungeons with my LS/FList/raid group, I've never had an issue at all. So again, it's more logical that every time it's been an issue, and every time I've seen them undergeared/not using CDs, that the under geared/no CD part is the most likely reason.
(It's odd how that always lines up.)

EDIT: Just noticed this.

My fastest - 11minute temple
My slowest - 30 minute Ala Mhigo (With no wipes amusingly)

It's worth noting that even with no wipes, that Ala Mhigo could well have stretched into 40+ minutes if I hadn't have been DPSing as well.

We all know Lv70 dungeons are a breeze. There is literally no reason any healer should ever have a problem with them, even if the tank left the instance.
The OP is talking about the "leveling" dungeons, though she did say 60-70, she technically means 61-69. (And i doubt she has trouble in the 1st 2 really, even if there is a larger need to pay attention.)

[magnanimousCynic]

snip

I'm looking at that log for Ala Mhigo and that BLM is making me cry on the inside. F3 spam, no F1, no B4, no Foul, low cooldown usage, used T4 as main AoE damage???????

OH GOD, THEY EVEN USED MANASHIFT ON THE DRK FOR ZERO BENEFITS?

Sebazy, I'm surprised you even came out of that duty sane.

[Bobs]

This is madness.

Sounds like a typical day of healing to me.

[Vstarstruck]

I had to talk to a few friends about this because the times seem suspicious. You are not doing the likes of doma castle/ castrum abana in 13 minutes regardless of method in @level gear, I/e you are 67 in doma. 13 minutes is not happening, period, unless both DPS have 69-70 syncing down. That is not a fair comparison and a violation of the scientific method, one variable only please. One notes having a doma run with a lv 70 synced dps with one leveling, and they where no where near 13 mins and it was obvious the lv 70 knew what they where doing. It was a fast run, maybe touching 15-17 mins, but not 13.

Anyways the general idea is sound, just over exaggeration a bit without considering lots of variables. Yes the average DF tank does not know what they are doing, same with DPS and healers. For the solutions, no we do not need to force smaller pulls, what needs to be done is have better guides in the game and some kind of advance novice runs to pass before you can queue for this stuff.

To have big pulls work well, you need DPS that know how AoE, healer that can toggle DPS and healing, and Tanks using proper CD management. It quickly fails if the tank does not know what to do, and SLOWLY fails if the tank and healer know how to play but the dps do not know what to do. It is why one of my sources notes of refusing to solo queue anymore, trying to heal though 3 minute pulls becomes stressful and being dps there means 14-20 min runs are more common, vs 20-30 mins.

[Sebazy]

The next issue is when spaming heals is only slowing down the depletion of the tanks HP, but not actually bringing them back up.
You literally cant do anything else, other than pop oGCDs inbetween heals, and make sure regen was up prior. (You cant pop it during battle, or the 2GCDs of no heals will kill the tank)

That's an interesting observation to think about really, in early ARR tank damage in dungeons was generally pretty reasonable, ensuring regen was up when it needed to be was generally not a problem, advance onto Coil and T1 made regen quite a risky prospect right out of the gate especially towards the end of the encounter.

Nowadays it's the total opposite, tank damage in raids can often be handled almost entirely by regens and a fairy, yet you see the biggest spikes in dungeons. I had a few tanks pull the Doma giant to the gunship early on in SB's release, that's an eye watering pull to heal and frankly, when I habitually tried it when levelling my PLD, I pretty much realised it wasn't happening right from the first try.

We all know Lv70 dungeons are a breeze. There is literally no reason any healer should ever have a problem with them, even if the tank left the instance.
The OP is talking about the "leveling" dungeons

I thought that was my point? =(

To back up your point here, Lv60 dungeons were much the same too:

The most under geared tank I've ever logged

I wish I'd taken a screenshot of the party HP bars, it was a combination of sub par and broken gear that had this tank having less HP than me by a very significant amount. He averaged just over 200dps for the run, not through any real fault in his play (Ironically his CD usage and stuff was ok), but simply that his gear was that bad. The only real issue we faced was agro TBH. The run was still decently quick and I wasn't that far off my usual numbers. Fast forward to the likes of Bardams, Doma or even The Dusk Vigil and I'd have never managed to DPS in the manner I did with a tank this squishy.

Sebazy, I'm surprised you even came out of that duty sane.

I think I actually commed the BLM if I remember right, the Nin was beyond shocking, it was legitimately hilarious and I really wish I'd recorded the run =(