Healing in 4man parties (The experience 60-70)

[spagthetapdancer]

....really? d-d-do that many other tanks not use cooldowns? are Darkhold-style wall to boss pulls of 3+ packs that common? is this a chaos data center thing?

[Avatre]

The healer in my party is less stressed out and having more fun

That part there is 100% based on each individual. Not everyone finds the small pulls to be fun, just like not everyone enjoys the massive pulls. I personally enjoy the 2-3 mobs worth of pulls(dependant on the DPS and tank of course) when I heal, because then I have more to do rather than just DPS, or just heal. Challenging ones self with larger pulls can help people get better at their classes, but at the same time isn't a requirement, and depends on each individuals desire for the run.

[spagthetapdancer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INQ0ZJb3mXA
I had to go rewatch my first run through doma castle. I really didn't pop enough cooldowns X_X. surprised that healer kept me up so much but I guess not overpulling is what kept me from getting us in over our head.

[Reinha]

Healing with sch isn't difficult even with crappy tanks. Every job has at least 2 burst heal buttons by level 62.

You just gotta know how your tools work and apply them accordingly. When I leveled my healers I never had problems except people eating aoes.

On top of those burst heals there are also many healing buffs which can be used when the tank is cycling through his weaker cooldowns or has ran out of them entirely. Rouse, Presence of Mind, Synastry and Largesse for example. Eye for an Eye works too but it's not as powerful as Largesse.

[HiromiVenia]

That part there is 100% based on each individual. Not everyone finds the small pulls to be fun, just like not everyone enjoys the massive pulls. I personally enjoy the 2-3 mobs worth of pulls(dependant on the DPS and tank of course) when I heal, because then I have more to do rather than just DPS, or just heal. Challenging ones self with larger pulls can help people get better at their classes, but at the same time isn't a requirement, and depends on each individuals desire for the run.

As a tank, i had some healers who demanded massive pulls, so i agree with you. The real problem is when the default playstyle is not the game default, but a (bad) community habit like pulling massive = better.

[Rokke]

All healers have decent AoE, after leveling all 3 I find WHM to be especially good with managing dps and heals in huge pulls. Unless my tank has forgotten to add their CDs to their hotbar (really do suspect it sometimes) or is new/undergeared (first stretch of Bardam is probably the most obvious skill+gear check), I'm a-ok with big pulls. How much or little I dps is unique to the run, but generally I can juggle well enough.

If your party cannot handle a decent sized pull, yeah, gotta shrink em down... But single pulling with a good bunch would be such a waste.

[Marxam]

Things Square Enix could do:
I think, if you don't let them pull more than one pull, adding collision barriers to prevent them going further would fix most of the issues here.
Adding challenging, but controlled trash mobs would also be nice for the future of the game.

There's nothing SE can do about bad players or players who don't care enough to try. Bad players are bad and now that dungeons are easy glorified hallways there is no challenge to improve on. Anyone who's been through vanilla Amdapoor Keep knows that dungeon kicked some serious ass. Strong mobs, tough bosses (demon wall) and ambush mobs if you move too far too soon. I remember having to stand outside of demon wall's boss area to plan out when to lb and I never had that experience since.

You also need to remember FFXIV is catered towards the mainstream casual market meaning for every 100 casual players that suck in DF maybe ten will go on to become raiders and maybe a few more will actually start to care about their job's role. Nevertheless I think probably the best way to help players on SE's end is to:

a) Introduce higher difficulty tests in Novice Hall, ex. Take aggro from an enemy attacking a healer who is spamming aoe heals without using aoe attacks or survive 5 tank busters in a row.

b) Raise the difficulty of enemies in dungeons and not put up barriers in every room. Temple of Quarn is a good example where the bee's final sting can KO you regardless of damage so the party needs to always focus this enemy down first. Aurum Vale is a bad example where you just have a large group of enemies in a large room that act as sponges.

[tymora]

I find single group pulls extremely boring, as a tank, as a dps and as a healer.

[SomeRandomHuman]

On top of those burst heals there are also many healing buffs which can be used when the tank is cycling through his weaker cooldowns or has ran out of them entirely. Rouse, Presence of Mind, Synastry and Largesse for example. Eye for an Eye works too but it's not as powerful as Largesse.

Indeed, but the brute force method of burst healing is sometimes the best answer. Every tool has its pros and cons to other tools. Sometimes it takes an unorthodox approach to fix an unorthodox problem.

[HyoMinPark]

What? Lv1-60 is a joke and super easy. 2.0 unerfed Arum Vale is easier than most of the SB dungeons. There wasnt a single difficult encounter up till SB. The only difficulty stemed from healers maybe wasting heals/rezzes on people who didnt dodge, which you almost never need to do. (You can solo most of the bosses). Thats like saying Lv70 dungeons at iLv290 is as hard as the leveling dungeons in SB, when they are jokes, and super easy, even if under geared.

I have to disagree with this. A lot of the baby dungeons from ARR and even some from HW were way more challenging than some of the SB dungeons when you’re running them at a relevant level or back in the day before the were nerfed with the new expansion/blatant overgearing. And Aurum Vale is certainly still the hardest of any leveling dungeon. Why do you think people always leave the minute they see it?

Take dungeons like Sunken Temple of Qarn that had priority mobs that DPS needed to kill first (Temple Bees) before they killed the tank (Final Sting). Think of the wandering Aevis in Stone Vigil that hit ridiculously hard for a level 41 dungeon, so tanks had to be cautious in how much they could actually pull. Think of Dzemael Darkhold and Aurum Vale with their patrolling mobs. I would say that, by design, a lot of the ARR leveling dungeons are more challenging that the SB ones. They actually require DPS to focus down certain mobs before trouble brews, parties to pay attention to wandering mobs so that they aren’t overwhelmed, and for party members to pay attention to certain mechanics that automatically result in either a one-shot (Doom in Qarn) or make things ridiculously hard on a healer (poison stacks, Goldbile, and Burrs in AV).

Never forget, they nerfed the original Amdapor Keep and Pharos Sirius, too, because people kept complaining they were too hard to do. Now they’re complete facerolls. I can agree that the level 70 ‘Expert’ dungeons are complete jokes though.



As for the OP, I doubt that single-pack pulling tanks give you 13~16 minute clears on leveling dungeons. There’s just no way. If you want to post proof, then I will gladly concede, but there’s absolutely no way pulling single packs the entire dungeon run is going to equate to a sub-20 minute run. Unless you got EXTREMELY lucky and landed ridiculously competent people in your 15-minute leveling dungeon runs.

And please, for the love of god, do not put up arbitrary gating to discourage larger pulls. The developers actually already tried that with a few of the level 60 dungeons. All it did was make the dungeon take longer for absolutely no reason, and the mobs didn’t even hit harder to compensate for the implementation of gates in the first place (hence why they were arbitrary).

I personally feel the best remedy for these crappy runs is proper education—for tanks, mitigation/cooldown usage; for healers, healing tactics and use of mitigation (Holy+Stun comes to mind here); for DPS, the importance of AOEing. However, you can’t force people to learn if they don’t want to. So you just have to deal with it. No amount of gating will teach bad players how to not be bad if they are unwilling to learn.

Dude, it's called estimating, chillax. =w=
If anything, your example is evidences to what they are saying: in a good scenario (like with you and your raid group), it takes a party 13-16 minutes to do level 70 4-man content.
In a bad scenario, it takes 20-30 minutes, depending on on the severity of the bad.

There’s a difference between giving numbers as part of an anecdotal experience, and then giving numbers and trying to pass them off as factual based off of said anecdotes. The OP is insinuating that groups that only pull one pack at a time will have 13~16 minute runs of leveling dungeons because they (the OP) have; therefore, tanks should only pull one pack at a time for a faster experience. There’s a lot of other contradicting anecdotes that suggest the opposite: small pulls = more time spent in the content, or larger pulls = faster.

It’s one thing to provide anecdotes, but using them as proof to back up a “statistic” is bad practice. Anecdotes are not factual.

Moro’s experience would be an outlier—she’s using her static as an example, which one could assume they must be relatively competent if they are clearing Savage content, so leveling dungeons should be a breeze for them. Plus, they all probably have a decent idea of how each other play, and that alone adds for better coordination and communication. However, most people do not run full in pre-mades, but DF their dungeons. There’s no telling what you’ll get in DF, so you can’t just assume that her outlier is backing up a statistic that has no quantifiable evidence behind it in the first place.