Tank dps harrasment

[Taika]

Our FC has members that have certain limitations[...] Now the issue is the players that have been rotated out may seek another group to tackle said content which at times results in hurtful comments which results in a negative experience that could have been avoided if logs were opt-n since if said group asked for the logs they would no clue what they are or how to obtain them.

Assuming these FC people of yours wouldn't have their logs up in the first place, how do you think the situation would be better when they join groups with strangers? I'm reading this as their performance is really bad, and the logs accurately describe their performance. Now you're suggesting that instead of joining or forming easygoing groups where high (or even average) level of performance is not required but everyone is free to perform at their own level without judgement, your FC people should keep joining groups they're not ready for (if I understood you correctly), they should just be able to hide that from the group beforehand? I'm really confused why you would imagine this to be better for anyone involved. And also, do you really imagine that people who would be harsh about a random person's log in the first place would be somehow nicer about that person's actual performance? What exactly would this protect your FC people from?

[Awha]

Assuming these FC people of yours wouldn't have their logs up in the first place, how do you think the situation would be better when they join groups with strangers? I'm reading this as their performance is really bad, and the logs accurately describe their performance. Now you're suggesting that instead of joining or forming easygoing groups where high (or even average) level of performance is not required but everyone is free to perform at their own level without judgement, your FC people should keep joining groups they're not ready for (if I understood you correctly), they should just be able to hide that from the group beforehand? I'm really confused why you would imagine this to be better for anyone involved. And also, do you really imagine that people who would be harsh about a random person's log in the first place would be somehow nicer about that person's actual performance? What exactly would this protect your FC people from?

The issue in question came about because one member just could not wait till it was his turn in the rotation so he looked to party finder, he hit up a player and said player was more then candid. At this time we had no idea you could hide your FFLogs, which I will say is on us we should have done more research before carrying said people through content or just not uploaded the data. To be fair we never expected said site to be opt-out anyways being a third party site for a third party function that we were under the impression SE did not support.

Way I see if FFLogs were opt-in and he tried to join a group they more then likely would ask for logs, which I can tell you he has no clue as to what purpose they serve or even how to get them. So my FC mate would more then likely simply ignore the person all together or move on. Now I do know this could have gone many different ways, but end result was he asked to join a group they looked up his logs and they mocked him. Now do I think making FFLogs opt-in would solve all forms of harassment, I do not, hell I do not even know if it would solve this case as I have said before. I do not think it is reasonable to even expect any change to fix issues of harassment, but I rather try something to see if it works instead of try nothing due to the risk of failure or at worst nothing changes. Though I do know if everything went the same and FFLogs was opt-in he would not have been mocked.

As I have said making FFLogs has the potential to limit cases of parser abuse, will it not sure, but if said change is proven to have a little impact on how data is gather with FFLogs, and third party function not supported by SE where is the harm in trying it?

snip . .

I have always prefixed this if it has the potential to help even just a little by SE why not give it a try? Where is the harm? In the end though only way to prove something is to try it. Call it a crusade, but in my eyes beats not trying anything. FFLogs is a third party feature, it simply does not make sense why a third party feature is opt out instead of in. As I have said before to even use FFLogs you need to make an account so making it opt-in would add a few extra clicks after we made an FFLogs account.

But why are you assuming the person who mocked your FC member's logs wouldn't have mocked them for not having logs? If he's the kind of a person who has a habit of being rude to people they meet in a game and have never met before, don't you think they're likely to find things to be mean about one way or another?

Also, you're writing in a more than a little condescending manner about this FC mate of yours. A player should also consider what kind of group activities they are signing up for and know their own limits and abilities. I mean I won't trial for a rugby team because I know I couldn't handle it for 5 minutes, and I also wouldn't join a clear party for Ultimate when I've barely seen the first phase of the fight. The basic issue behind your example case seems to be that your friend is looking to be carried, if not intentionally, then in ignorance, because you and their other FC buddies are doing your best to "protect" them from the fact. The FC mate shouldn't be joining parties they can't handle in the first place (which is of course no excuse for anyone to be mean about the fact). That doesn't mean they can't take part in the content though, especially with other players with similar performance level, so they can actually play at their own level and improve instead of others "helping" by doing all the heavy lifting.

To be honest an assumption is all I have to go based off, since in reality even though I did say if everything were the same, expect for x. That in itself would alter the situation. So assumption is all I got. As I have said before this could have gone many different ways across the board. Also not my intent to come off as condescending, my English, grammar , syntax, and word choice are not the best. Just that this issue was not fun for us as a whole, and overall we know that we are not faultless , and I do not blame the guy for what he said. Since from the outside looking in going based off the information he had available I cannot fault his judgment. I do not agree with what he said, but I can see why he said it. We had no clue this was going on after we told this week was not his turn. It is on us for not being more mindful and not having the skill to carry more players. Overall I do agree they are being carried, not going to say if it is intentionally, or out of willful ignorance.

I do not know what the impact my suggestion would have, no one does that is why I am only suggesting such a change be considered if the SE deems the benefits outweigh the cost / risk. Also as I have said I know my train of thought is not ideal, and do agree with what many of you are saying. One thing I simply do not understand is how such a request is considered extreme, I by no means am asking for FFLogs to be removed from the game all together.

Snip . . .

FFLogs seems fairly reasonable I am sure if SE asked them to make it so their site was opt-in instead of out they would consider it. We do not have to view this only from extremes, I am trying my best to avoid extremes in my suggestions.

It goes both ways those. My fun comes from large pulls and seeing just how much damage I can do during them. Comparatively, I'm bored out of my mind if a tank just one pack. If enough people feel the way I do in that particular party, why should we do one only one other person wants?

You are right it is not a reasonable exception to think DF means the group can only do small pulls. If one person is not okay with large pulls without being an ass the group should have every right to either ask said person to adjust or ask them to kindly remove themselves from the group. Though the same should be if the roles were reserved if three people wanted a slow run, does not give that one person the right to pull more with the exception that it is okay until the group vote kicks.

Why are you carrying them in the first place? That's what I find condescending. When our FC has had people who are new to raiding and / or inexperienced with the game, we put them in a party together and they play and learn and progress at their own pace, of course sometimes with people who have done the content before if there are extra slots - but with people challenging the content together, not with 6 people challenging the content for 2... Of course you and your FC are free to play the game in any way you enjoy, I just wouldn't find your arrangement enjoyable myself.


I just don't see any benefit in your suggestion for anyone - even for the purpose you're claiming you're suggesting it for. Mean people will be mean, logs available or not. It's better we use our energy to battle the mean people instead of battling the service that in itself is not mean but very useful.

Not my place to go into detail nor do I know how to put this without going into detail. I will just say reason I do it is because I understand where they are coming form, and how at times it sucks feeling helpless without much control over the hand you were dealt. I would be lying if I said it was always fun, it can be stressful to say the least especially when when you are 10% away from a kill only to sigh and mutter only if we had an extra dps or two. That is why we shifted away from trying to carry two people during prog, we are simply not good enough to do that.

As for your last point this is the crossroads I think this conversation will never get past. I will always disagree with not trying something simply out of the risk of failure. While naive changes can always be reverted within a video game, so I do not see the harm in trying. I simply do not see the harm in trying something out to see if it works trial and error I guess. Though I do respect your position though, and understand where you are coming from. I agree dicks will be dicks, and not sure about you but it seems easier to alter the system to foster change then try to foster a change in a person. If that makes any sense. Though to be frank, I really do not understand why a third party feature is requires someone to opt out of. Isn't that a little strange for a feature SE claims they do not support yet said feature requires someone to jump through hoops do not be part of that feature.

[Taika]

Way I see if FFLogs were opt-in and he tried to join a group they more then likely would ask for logs, which I can tell you he has no clue as to what purpose they serve or even how to get them. So my FC mate would more then likely simply ignore the person all together or move on.

But why are you assuming the person who mocked your FC member's logs wouldn't have mocked them for not having logs? If he's the kind of a person who has a habit of being rude to people they meet in a game and have never met before, don't you think they're likely to find things to be mean about one way or another?

Also, you're writing in a more than a little condescending manner about this FC mate of yours. A player should also consider what kind of group activities they are signing up for and know their own limits and abilities. I mean I won't trial for a rugby team because I know I couldn't handle it for 5 minutes, and I also wouldn't join a clear party for Ultimate when I've barely seen the first phase of the fight. The basic issue behind your example case seems to be that your friend is looking to be carried, if not intentionally, then in ignorance, because you and their other FC buddies are doing your best to "protect" them from the fact. The FC mate shouldn't be joining parties they can't handle in the first place (which is of course no excuse for anyone to be mean about the fact). That doesn't mean they can't take part in the content though, especially with other players with similar performance level, so they can actually play at their own level and improve instead of others "helping" by doing all the heavy lifting.

[Paladinleeds]

Opt in will not prevent one person from being looked up on FFlogs. It will cause the phrase "Open logs or kick" to become mainstream. It will cause more harassment than it already does.

It's possible, that by saying "Open logs or kick", it would allow for reports to be sent in and get people banned. But, SE don't have the manpower to enforce it, so it won't happen like that.

The FC mate shouldn't be joining parties they can't handle in the first place (which is of course no excuse for anyone to be mean about the fact).

Honestly, at this point, I think meanness is the only way forward. With how shielded his FC member has been, I think the meanness was the right thing to do. While it's not something I'd do myself, sometimes you need tough love.

58 pages later, and this is still going....
I understand squeezing out all the dps you can in savage content. What I never will understand why people think they should impose it on the core casual content. Just let the community at large have their fun.....
And before people start going down the 'differing play styles, /votekick' road.... Do we really want to foster that type of community? Personally, I don't think 5-10mins extra on a DF run isn't going to impact anyone's life to a material degree.

For those that want it, yes, we should foster that type of community. In expert dungeons and other casual content, I'm not one to care either way, but yes, for those that want that, I think it's fair game to push for it.

[akaneakki]

It's possible, that by saying "Open logs or kick", it would allow for reports to be sent in and get people banned. But, SE don't have the manpower to enforce it, so it won't happen like that.
.

Honestly this isn't about manpower only. There is a lot more than that. The fact that the end game players, the really good ones, provide guides, do the clears, help others with rotations, are the people who actually helps alot in the community. Also keep in mind these players are also those who bring a lot of attention to the non FFXIV players. Xenos is an example where many play the game because of him. I know its not a huge majority, but I think we both know it would be stupid by square enix to bann over 500-800k players.

[Taika]

It is on us for not being more mindful and not having the skill to carry more players.

Why are you carrying them in the first place? That's what I find condescending. When our FC has had people who are new to raiding and / or inexperienced with the game, we put them in a party together and they play and learn and progress at their own pace, of course sometimes with people who have done the content before if there are extra slots - but with people challenging the content together, not with 6 people challenging the content for 2... Of course you and your FC are free to play the game in any way you enjoy, I just wouldn't find your arrangement enjoyable myself.

I do not know what the impact my suggestion would have, no one does that is why I am only suggesting such a change be considered if the SE deems the benefits outweigh the cost / risk. Also as I have said I know my train of thought is not ideal, and do agree with what many of you are saying. One thing I simply do not understand is how such a request is considered extreme, I by no means am asking for FFLogs to be removed from the game all together.

I just don't see any benefit in your suggestion for anyone - even for the purpose you're claiming you're suggesting it for. Mean people will be mean, logs available or not. It's better we use our energy to battle the mean people instead of battling the service that in itself is not mean but very useful.